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GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic"
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neil68
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:52 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Mid-90’s and later Kombi buses that were still manufactured in Brazil specified GL5 or MIL-L-2105-B as per the owner’s manual.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
EVfun wrote:
On that point I will ask...

What did VW recommend in 2003 Mexican made Beetles? That would be a lot newer official VW recommendation than we got in the United States of America. The transaxle is almost the identical to the one in our Bugs.


GL-4, about a third of the way down on the right hand side of the page.

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Whatever VW filled my 2001 Mexican Beetle with was crap. It shifted horribly from the day I drove it off the dealer's lot. I thought it might get better after wearing in the synchros, but it didn't. My German trans that I built using GL-5 shifted way better. The difference was night and day when I switched cars.
After about 20k miles, I dumped the factory fill and tried Amsoil gear oil. Shifting was greatly improved, but still not as good as the German trans I built for my other car.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Has anyone used this stuff?

https://products.liqui-moly.com/gear-oil-additive-9.html

My ‘67 1200 (European) gearbox whines a little bit and I’d like to quieten it down. I’ve heard this stuff is good. The oil I run in it is 80/90w GL4 mineral oil.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

I'd like to change the gear oil in my 77 Bus transaxle.

Is there a preferred brand? Or is gear oil gear oil.

Thanks.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Cap10323 wrote:
I'd like to change the gear oil in my 77 Bus transaxle.

Is there a preferred brand? Or is gear oil gear oil.

Thanks.


Don't use oils that say that they are NOT for use in transaxles with hypoid gears (as per Redline) and don't use oils that say they are NOT for use in synchronized gear boxes. There are other oils that will not do all that well but which don't list any restrictions in their use so BBW.
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Cap10323
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:28 am    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Cap10323 wrote:
I'd like to change the gear oil in my 77 Bus transaxle.

Is there a preferred brand? Or is gear oil gear oil.

Thanks.


Don't use oils that say that they are NOT for use in transaxles with hypoid gears (as per Redline) and don't use oils that say they are NOT for use in synchronized gear boxes. There are other oils that will not do all that well but which don't list any restrictions in their use so BBW.


Gotcha. Picked up some Liqui Moly GL4 which fit the bill.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Valvoline now has a flexible pouch for their gear oil. Looks like a great way to fill the transaxle.

https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/grease-gear-oil/flexfill-full-synthetic-gear-oil
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
EVfun wrote:
What did VW recommend in 2003 Mexican made Beetles? [...]
GL-4 [...]
Whatever VW filled my 2001 Mexican Beetle with was crap. [...]
I don't know what VW Mexico used, but I have filled my Bug boxes with either Redline MTL or MT90 GL4 and been very happy with how they shift. I want to point out, again, that my advice should NOT be applied to later Bus boxes! The Bug box does not have hypoid gears, the later Bus box has does have hypoid gears.
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Czar1500
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

After reading though tons of pages I can say I’m in analysis paralysis mode. I’m hoping I can be brave enough and order VV831.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Czar1500 wrote:
After reading though tons of pages I can say I’m in analysis paralysis mode. I’m hoping I can be brave enough and order VV831.

It works for me.
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Czar1500
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Thanks Glenn. I just ordered 3 qts from Amazon. Going to drain the fluid over the weekend and refill on Monday.
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frenchroast
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

I've used VV831 80w90 for years without any problems but I was aware that I double clutch on downshifts and accepted occasional grindiness as part of driving a bug. I decided to try a GL-4 only gear oil and see for myself if there is any difference I could detect compared to VV831 (VV831 is both GL-4 and GL-5 and hypoid compatible. I also considered MT-90 but it's non-hypoid). Just doing this out of interest and the VV831 I had in there was still good. The cost and expense isn't a factor. Also, nothing against synthetics or GL-5, I'm just interested if there is a difference that I can observe between the VV831 GL-4/5 and a GL-4 only.

I got a gallon of Sta-Lube 85w90 on Amazon for $29.74USD delivered which is about the same price as VV831 80w90. The Bentley specifies sae 90 hypoid and the closest I could find was 85w90 which is pretty close and I live in a mild climate. I'm sure a lot has changed in the oils since that spec was published and I couldn't find a straight sae 90. The Bentley also doesn't specify GL-4 and I'm not sure if that API standard was even out then.

Here's what I found in my comparison: the Sta-Lube 85w90 shifts smoother without double clutching downshifts. There was also a slight "catch" on upshifts to 3rd with the VV831. I didn't get that with the Sta-Lube. Not real bad if you go easy on the shifts but a definite metal-on-metal feel. Not what I would call a grind but close and it didn't have that satisfying thump.

So that's my finding. I'm not an expert on transaxles or chemical engineering but I do know what I feel when I'm driving and I'll be leaving the Sta-Lube in there.

Things I don't know:
Is the difference that GL-4 slows the synchro's faster than GL-5?
Is the broader compatibility range of VV831 a factor?
New gear oil vs. slightly used oil?
85w90 vs. 80w90?
Brand vs. Brand difference?
Other?


Data points:
-Stock shifter
-Good condition shift rod bushing and hangar bracket
-I lubricate the shift rod bushing and nose cone rod with Tri-flow penetrating lubricant (turn the bushing slot up on install and shift to second before lubricating the nose code rod) so the shift rod assembly and coupler are working fine.
-Rebuilt IRS transaxle in good condition with ~100k miles
~85°F

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Last edited by frenchroast on Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

frenchroast wrote:
I've used VV831 80w90 for years without any problems but I was aware that I double clutch on downshifts and accepted occasional grindiness as part of driving a bug. I decided to try a GL-4 only gear oil and see for myself if there is any difference I could detect compared to VV831 (VV831 is both GL-4 and GL-5 and hypoid compatible. I also considered MT-90 but it's non-hypoid). Just doing this out of interest and the VV831 I had in there was still good. The cost and expense isn't a factor. Also, nothing against synthetics or GL-5, I'm just interested if there is a difference that I can observe between the VV831 GL-4/5 and a GL-4 only.

I got a gallon of Sta-Lube 85w90 on Amazon for $29.74USD delivered which is about the same price as VV831 80w90. The Bentley specifies sae 90 hypoid and the closest I could find was 85w90 which is pretty close and I live in a mild climate. I'm sure a lot has changed in the oils since that spec was published and I couldn't find a straight sae 90. The Bentley also doesn't specify GL-4 and I'm not sure if that API standard was even out then.

Here's what I found in my comparison: the Sta-Lube 85w90 shifts smoother without double clutching downshifts. There was also a slight "catch" on upshifts to 3rd with the VV831. I didn't get that with the Sta-Lube. Not real bad if you go easy on the shifts but a definite metal-on-metal feel. Not what I would call a grind but close and it didn't have that satisfying thump.

So that's my finding. I'm not an expert on transaxles or chemical engineering but I do know what I feel when I'm driving and I'll be leaving the Sta-Lube in there.

Things I don't know:
Is the difference that GL-4 slows the synchro's faster than GL-5?
Is the broader compatibility range of VV831 a factor?
New gear oil vs. slightly used oil?
Brand vs. Brand difference?
Other?


Data points:
-Stock shifter
-Good condition shift rod bushing and hangar bracket
-I lubricate the shift rod bushing and nose cone rod with Tri-flow penetrating lubricant (turn the bushing slot up on install and shift to second before lubricating the nose code rod) so the shift rod assembly and coupler are working fine.
-Rebuilt transaxle in good condition with ~100k miles
~85°F

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

What vehicle (specific transaxle) did you do this comparison with?
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frenchroast
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:

What vehicle (specific transaxle) did you do this comparison with?

It's a 4 speed T3 rebuild in a 1969 T1 (same gearing).
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

frenchroast wrote:
EVfun wrote:

What vehicle (specific transaxle) did you do this comparison with?

It's a 4 speed T3 rebuild in a 1969 T1 (same gearing).

No hypoid gears to protect! The final drive used on type 1 and 3 vehicles are a spiral bevel drive. They lack the large sliding friction of a hypoid drive. The late Bus gearbox used a hypoid final drive because they use a larger pinion gear so they can be stronger when that is the killer point.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

My 1970's transmission got hard to shift after a few minutes in 2018. I can't remember whether GL-4 or GL-5 had been in it prior to its failure. But I bet 260+K miles - most of those miles with an 1835cc DP engine - were more of a reason than whether GL-4 or GL-5 was in it.

Incidentally, I purchased a rebuilt transmission from MoFoCo in 2018 to replace it, and those are shipped without gear oil. There was a reminder tag for me to add gear oil, and I'd have to check whether I used GL-4 or GL-5 in it, the tag did not specify. Anyway, that transmission works fine, as does the never-removed transmission in my 1971.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

The amazing thing here?? People write in here and Reference the VW manual specs on oils and greases. It’s like being frozen in time as if technology stopped in the late 50s or 60s but believe me when I tell you synthetic lubricants are far better than anything VW could have imagined.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Zundfolge1432 wrote:
The amazing thing here?? People write in here and Reference the VW manual specs on oils and greases. It’s like being frozen in time as if technology stopped in the late 50s or 60s but believe me when I tell you synthetic lubricants are far better than anything VW could have imagined.

It's pretty much just funny at this point when you hear people preach the GL-4 only baloney. I know they aren't trying to make me laugh but they do a good job at it regardless Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Hi yall.

I wanted this, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-a220015ce

But not for $70. Not on a stock transaxle at least.

So, what about this? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-a200022ce

Transaxle is stock '65 type 1. never rebuilt, just got new seals and gaskets.

Anyone got experience with this oil? Any reason it wont work?

Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
Hi yall.

I wanted this, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-a220015ce

But not for $70. Not on a stock transaxle at least.

So, what about this? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-a200022ce

Transaxle is stock '65 type 1. never rebuilt, just got new seals and gaskets.

Anyone got experience with this oil? Any reason it wont work?

Thanks

Redline 75W90-NS. Make sure you get the NS type.
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