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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Mid-90’s and later Kombi buses that were still manufactured in Brazil specified GL5 or MIL-L-2105-B as per the owner’s manual.
_________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:35 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Wildthings wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
On that point I will ask...
What did VW recommend in 2003 Mexican made Beetles? That would be a lot newer official VW recommendation than we got in the United States of America. The transaxle is almost the identical to the one in our Bugs. |
GL-4, about a third of the way down on the right hand side of the page.
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Whatever VW filled my 2001 Mexican Beetle with was crap. It shifted horribly from the day I drove it off the dealer's lot. I thought it might get better after wearing in the synchros, but it didn't. My German trans that I built using GL-5 shifted way better. The difference was night and day when I switched cars.
After about 20k miles, I dumped the factory fill and tried Amsoil gear oil. Shifting was greatly improved, but still not as good as the German trans I built for my other car. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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cb1990s Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2019 Posts: 314 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:18 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Has anyone used this stuff?
https://products.liqui-moly.com/gear-oil-additive-9.html
My ‘67 1200 (European) gearbox whines a little bit and I’d like to quieten it down. I’ve heard this stuff is good. The oil I run in it is 80/90w GL4 mineral oil. |
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Cap10323 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 604 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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I'd like to change the gear oil in my 77 Bus transaxle.
Is there a preferred brand? Or is gear oil gear oil.
Thanks. _________________ -Ian
'77 Westfalia - 2.0 F.I |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50254
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Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Cap10323 wrote: |
I'd like to change the gear oil in my 77 Bus transaxle.
Is there a preferred brand? Or is gear oil gear oil.
Thanks. |
Don't use oils that say that they are NOT for use in transaxles with hypoid gears (as per Redline) and don't use oils that say they are NOT for use in synchronized gear boxes. There are other oils that will not do all that well but which don't list any restrictions in their use so BBW. |
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Cap10323 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 604 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:28 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Cap10323 wrote: |
I'd like to change the gear oil in my 77 Bus transaxle.
Is there a preferred brand? Or is gear oil gear oil.
Thanks. |
Don't use oils that say that they are NOT for use in transaxles with hypoid gears (as per Redline) and don't use oils that say they are NOT for use in synchronized gear boxes. There are other oils that will not do all that well but which don't list any restrictions in their use so BBW. |
Gotcha. Picked up some Liqui Moly GL4 which fit the bill. _________________ -Ian
'77 Westfalia - 2.0 F.I |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15278 Location: Deep in the 405
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5445 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Bruce wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
What did VW recommend in 2003 Mexican made Beetles? [...] |
GL-4 [...] |
Whatever VW filled my 2001 Mexican Beetle with was crap. [...] |
I don't know what VW Mexico used, but I have filled my Bug boxes with either Redline MTL or MT90 GL4 and been very happy with how they shift. I want to point out, again, that my advice should NOT be applied to later Bus boxes! The Bug box does not have hypoid gears, the later Bus box has does have hypoid gears. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Czar1500 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2021 Posts: 14 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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After reading though tons of pages I can say I’m in analysis paralysis mode. I’m hoping I can be brave enough and order VV831. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Czar1500 wrote: |
After reading though tons of pages I can say I’m in analysis paralysis mode. I’m hoping I can be brave enough and order VV831. |
It works for me. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Czar1500 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2021 Posts: 14 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Thanks Glenn. I just ordered 3 qts from Amazon. Going to drain the fluid over the weekend and refill on Monday. |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 678
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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I've used VV831 80w90 for years without any problems but I was aware that I double clutch on downshifts and accepted occasional grindiness as part of driving a bug. I decided to try a GL-4 only gear oil and see for myself if there is any difference I could detect compared to VV831 (VV831 is both GL-4 and GL-5 and hypoid compatible. I also considered MT-90 but it's non-hypoid). Just doing this out of interest and the VV831 I had in there was still good. The cost and expense isn't a factor. Also, nothing against synthetics or GL-5, I'm just interested if there is a difference that I can observe between the VV831 GL-4/5 and a GL-4 only.
I got a gallon of Sta-Lube 85w90 on Amazon for $29.74USD delivered which is about the same price as VV831 80w90. The Bentley specifies sae 90 hypoid and the closest I could find was 85w90 which is pretty close and I live in a mild climate. I'm sure a lot has changed in the oils since that spec was published and I couldn't find a straight sae 90. The Bentley also doesn't specify GL-4 and I'm not sure if that API standard was even out then.
Here's what I found in my comparison: the Sta-Lube 85w90 shifts smoother without double clutching downshifts. There was also a slight "catch" on upshifts to 3rd with the VV831. I didn't get that with the Sta-Lube. Not real bad if you go easy on the shifts but a definite metal-on-metal feel. Not what I would call a grind but close and it didn't have that satisfying thump.
So that's my finding. I'm not an expert on transaxles or chemical engineering but I do know what I feel when I'm driving and I'll be leaving the Sta-Lube in there.
Things I don't know:
Is the difference that GL-4 slows the synchro's faster than GL-5?
Is the broader compatibility range of VV831 a factor?
New gear oil vs. slightly used oil?
85w90 vs. 80w90?
Brand vs. Brand difference?
Other?
Data points:
-Stock shifter
-Good condition shift rod bushing and hangar bracket
-I lubricate the shift rod bushing and nose cone rod with Tri-flow penetrating lubricant (turn the bushing slot up on install and shift to second before lubricating the nose code rod) so the shift rod assembly and coupler are working fine.
-Rebuilt IRS transaxle in good condition with ~100k miles
~85°F
Last edited by frenchroast on Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5445 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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frenchroast wrote: |
I've used VV831 80w90 for years without any problems but I was aware that I double clutch on downshifts and accepted occasional grindiness as part of driving a bug. I decided to try a GL-4 only gear oil and see for myself if there is any difference I could detect compared to VV831 (VV831 is both GL-4 and GL-5 and hypoid compatible. I also considered MT-90 but it's non-hypoid). Just doing this out of interest and the VV831 I had in there was still good. The cost and expense isn't a factor. Also, nothing against synthetics or GL-5, I'm just interested if there is a difference that I can observe between the VV831 GL-4/5 and a GL-4 only.
I got a gallon of Sta-Lube 85w90 on Amazon for $29.74USD delivered which is about the same price as VV831 80w90. The Bentley specifies sae 90 hypoid and the closest I could find was 85w90 which is pretty close and I live in a mild climate. I'm sure a lot has changed in the oils since that spec was published and I couldn't find a straight sae 90. The Bentley also doesn't specify GL-4 and I'm not sure if that API standard was even out then.
Here's what I found in my comparison: the Sta-Lube 85w90 shifts smoother without double clutching downshifts. There was also a slight "catch" on upshifts to 3rd with the VV831. I didn't get that with the Sta-Lube. Not real bad if you go easy on the shifts but a definite metal-on-metal feel. Not what I would call a grind but close and it didn't have that satisfying thump.
So that's my finding. I'm not an expert on transaxles or chemical engineering but I do know what I feel when I'm driving and I'll be leaving the Sta-Lube in there.
Things I don't know:
Is the difference that GL-4 slows the synchro's faster than GL-5?
Is the broader compatibility range of VV831 a factor?
New gear oil vs. slightly used oil?
Brand vs. Brand difference?
Other?
Data points:
-Stock shifter
-Good condition shift rod bushing and hangar bracket
-I lubricate the shift rod bushing and nose cone rod with Tri-flow penetrating lubricant (turn the bushing slot up on install and shift to second before lubricating the nose code rod) so the shift rod assembly and coupler are working fine.
-Rebuilt transaxle in good condition with ~100k miles
~85°F
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What vehicle (specific transaxle) did you do this comparison with? _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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frenchroast Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019 Posts: 678
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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EVfun wrote: |
What vehicle (specific transaxle) did you do this comparison with? |
It's a 4 speed T3 rebuild in a 1969 T1 (same gearing). |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5445 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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frenchroast wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
What vehicle (specific transaxle) did you do this comparison with? |
It's a 4 speed T3 rebuild in a 1969 T1 (same gearing). |
No hypoid gears to protect! The final drive used on type 1 and 3 vehicles are a spiral bevel drive. They lack the large sliding friction of a hypoid drive. The late Bus gearbox used a hypoid final drive because they use a larger pinion gear so they can be stronger when that is the killer point. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31266 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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My 1970's transmission got hard to shift after a few minutes in 2018. I can't remember whether GL-4 or GL-5 had been in it prior to its failure. But I bet 260+K miles - most of those miles with an 1835cc DP engine - were more of a reason than whether GL-4 or GL-5 was in it.
Incidentally, I purchased a rebuilt transmission from MoFoCo in 2018 to replace it, and those are shipped without gear oil. There was a reminder tag for me to add gear oil, and I'd have to check whether I used GL-4 or GL-5 in it, the tag did not specify. Anyway, that transmission works fine, as does the never-removed transmission in my 1971. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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The amazing thing here?? People write in here and Reference the VW manual specs on oils and greases. It’s like being frozen in time as if technology stopped in the late 50s or 60s but believe me when I tell you synthetic lubricants are far better than anything VW could have imagined. |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
The amazing thing here?? People write in here and Reference the VW manual specs on oils and greases. It’s like being frozen in time as if technology stopped in the late 50s or 60s but believe me when I tell you synthetic lubricants are far better than anything VW could have imagined. |
It's pretty much just funny at this point when you hear people preach the GL-4 only baloney. I know they aren't trying to make me laugh but they do a good job at it regardless _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Hi yall.
I wanted this, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-a220015ce
But not for $70. Not on a stock transaxle at least.
So, what about this? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tic-a200022ce
Transaxle is stock '65 type 1. never rebuilt, just got new seals and gaskets.
Anyone got experience with this oil? Any reason it wont work?
Thanks _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: GL 4 or GL 5 - "Official Gear Lube Topic" |
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Redline 75W90-NS. Make sure you get the NS type. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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