Dual Fuel Westys - Propane and Gas - who knows what ?

[usedcarr]

Has CARB approved the warp engine for Cali yet? Is it good for this dimension only, or can you explore others. Sounds like an intriguing conversion.
_________________
10'0" Lance Carson
6'3" Hamisch Fish
Schwinn Beach Cruiser
Sold the westy, never even drove it

[J Charlton]

It is with great trepidation that I contradict 10centlife on this forum. I have great respect for his knowledge and willingness to share it. However, I feel that the full picture of the merits of using propane as a westy fuel has not been painted. I don't have all of the answere either, yet here are a couple of links to articles that will flesh out the discussion.
First af all, there is a significant price diffeential between propane vs gasoline. Propane is between 30 to 40% cheaper than gasoline (even after the lower BTU rating is taken into consideration) . Check it out at
http://www.mjervin.com/WPPS_Public.htm
Depending on which way you choose to express the math, at a 30% differential, propane is 30% cheaper than gasoline or expressed otherwise, gasoline is about 43% more expensive than propane (relative to propane).
Beyond that, propane is a byproduct of the refining process, some of it is even flamed off in some cases - i.e. wasted. It is clasified as a clean burning fuel .
See the article at
http://www.canadafreepress.com/car-reviews/car-accessories/propane.htm
for more details re this - of particular interest should be where the propane is coming from.
Beyond that, allowing vehicles to run off of a compressed hydrocarbon gas, propane, compressed natural gas, even compressed methane (that's what the guy with the algae trailer must be doing - using methane) has to be a positive step in breaking the dependancy that we have on Mid-East oil.
Be forewarned however, if the use of compressed hydrocarbon gases that is domestically produced begins to become widespread, OPEC will surely (as it has in the past) drop the price of crude to make the emergent technology "uneconomical" and maintain their position of supplying fuel for our addiction to fossil fuels.
OK - so this is a long post - check out the articles, especially the Canadian Free Press one.
JC

[wavanagon]

all this talk about propane vs. gasoline doesn't do it for me. If I were to go for a 'conversion', it would be electric. Get the combustion out of the picture. Not sure how green it is though, as you still have to produce the batteries in a factory, then eventually dispose of them. There was a post recently about an electric vanagon that blew my socks off. It's been floating around my brain ever since I saw it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yif6sPbbAR8

Here is the latest blog entry:

http://e-vanagon.blogspot.com/2008/01/sixty-six-miles-per-day_28.html

Looks like he is logging 60 miles per day! Wow.

My neighbor has a GEM car, and they have been driving it daily for almost 3 years now. Granted, it's only 2 miles a day, with trips to Safeway on the weekends. But, it has been very reliable. This is the future, I hope.
_________________
1988 Vanagon GL - For Sale
1987 Westfalia
2008 Audi A4 2.0T
http://wavanagon.googlepages.com

Dirty from working on your Vanagon? Buy soap from my wife!
http://www.teatreesoap.com

[allsierra123]

they are reliable. But for the type vehicle a vanagon is its not preactical. Its usually a long haul vehicle. road trips and camping and what not. most on the board probably have a smaller more economical car for those short trips.I mean If he could get it up to 300-400 miles in a day that would be better. But its still not ideal for travel. I get about 275 miles on a tank of gas its a little low but I know as soon as I put fuel in I can for sure travel another 275 miles that day. I would have trouble on a trip if that would be all I could do for the day.
_________________
95 GMC Yukon 6.5 TD 2 Door Tow pig/ Daily driver.
91 Vanagon GL. 1.9TD Conversion Sold
81 Vw rabbit 1.6 Diesel. Sold

[tencentlife]

[J Charlton]

It is with great trepidation that I contradict 10centlife on this forum.


Don't be ridiculous. I may be a bright and even at times clever fellow, but I'm no demigod or even a bargain-basement Titan offering pronouncements from some low-altitude perch. I'm a poorly-educated bum who manages to muddle through.

I was just kidding ten - no one who shares and cares about the crazy vans that we love could ever be considered a "demigod or even a bargain-basement Titan".
Another link that I literally stumbled upon :
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1972-05-01/Convert-Your-Car-To-Propane.aspx

Hey, I agree with you re carbon neutrality. For that reason in the last 6 months I've installed a 48 tube solar hot water collector on my roof - it produces about 80% of our domestic hot water needs - the rest is supplied by a tankless water (on demand) - 97% efficiency with natural gas- therefore no storage tank. Same at our family cottage, replaced the old oil furnace with a propane fired system that is essentially a jeezly big on demand tankless HWH that feeds a hydronic (Clean Air) HRV furnace. The whole system operates at about 95% eficiency. Long term I'll be adding a TARM wood boiler and (about) 600 gal heat sump to supply most of the heating needs at the cottage. Wood is plentiful and cheap and best of all, is carbon neutral.

I pm'd Gary Lee re his installation and his tank is under the rear seat and gives him about 200km range - I figure that there's room under the van where the current propane tank is, and again on the other side of the van for two tanks to be mounted to give one a total range of about 350km - that's on top of the range provided by the regular gasoline function. No reason why the stove, outside BBQ etc couldn't all be fed off the tanks as well.

I don't particularly like buying into the whole petro-chemical fossil fuel dependancy cycle any more than I have to either, but I see down the line that the capture of methane (from a whole variety of sources) and the marketting of it in compressed form will provide a renewable carbon neutral source of fuel. Methane is one of the worst enemies of the ozone layer as well, so look for initiatives ahead to capture and use it. (c'mon guys - spare us all of the bean jokes - we've all seen Blazing Saddles)
jc

[Corwyn]

I have all the respect in the world for going "green"; but at the moment, my eyes are on the gas pumps and the prices thereon.

Tencent - build a kit or an engine for burning Propane and you will be RICH! I'll buy the first one of either (even though I just replaced my engine).
_________________
'90 White Westy ("The Longship")
FAS Gen V 2.0
The Annual Baja Rally
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604813&highlight=baja

"If anything's" gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there"
~ Captain Ron ~

[kjurkic]

For what its worth, while the BTU density of LPG is lower than gasoline, the Octane rating is exceptionally higher, and many folks are not making the best use of this property.

In the 80's, I visited a speedshop that had built a Chevelle with a 427ci, with 11.5:1 pistons, and twin turbos running 10psi. No detonation issues whatsover. The owner was planning to explore building a small-block with 16:1 compression to see if he could get diesel levels of thermal efficiency.

Talk amongst yourselves.........

Ken

[tencentlife]

LP is still rotted ferns, but 16:1 happens to be the target CR I would aim for to adapt the engine to ethanol. Easy enough to do when the time comes, and programmable FI takes care of the rest.

Gross calorific values:
Gasoline 47,300 kJ/kg
LP 50,350 kJ/kg
CH4 55,530 kJ/kg
ETOH 29,700 kJ/kg
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[vanis13]

it is the fuel storage that is the issue with LP (and CNG) Big heavy tanks.

I owned a bi-Fuel F-150 Gas/CNG. ran great on both but the CNG tank was 5 ft long 1.5 ft in diameter and had to be recertified every 15 years. Weighed a couple hundred pounds empty, help the BTU equivalent of 12 gasoline gallons which at the 15 mpg rate lasted about 160 miles.

LP is easier to find that CNG but more expensive per BTU and it is a price unregulated gas so it can be all over the place on price.
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace

www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make

[ThorAlex]

Have a look at the alternative fuels forum over at club8090.co.uk, the brits onvert vanagons (called transporter or caravelle over there) to LPG all the time. The DJ WBX seem to like it a lot.
_________________
1990 syncro 1.6TD "Smily"

Ex-vans:
1990 Caravelle coach 1.6TD
1986 Transporter Double cab syncro 2.1 112hp

"I'm wrong so often... It's great!" - Adam Savage

[Blueconundrum]

I've been thinking about alternative fuels ever since I read this:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html

Of course, his engine was carburated. BUT then I found this:

http://www.ewsews.com/cngfaq.html

I've got other fish to fry before I think about any of this, but it sure gets ideas rolling around in my head.
_________________
1988 Vanagon Syncro EJ22

[daryleWB]

I've been running my Van on E85 for the last 2000 miles or so. It is said that our national ethanol program needs some work, but I won't get into that here. I'm paying about 60 cents less per gallon and getting about 2 MPG less than with petrol so it works out well.

This is with a 'Whitelightning' conversion. Don't try to run E85 in a stock Vanagon.

If I had my own still and a few acres to grow sugar beets then life would truly be grand.

[wolfsburg4x4]

[kevtherev]

I have converted my camper to run on duel fuel.
I did it five years ago... and my flat four loves the propane/butane mix as we get here.
more propane than butane in the winter as propane has a lower freezing point.
I haven't used petrol for three years now.

I run mine through a carburettor but multipoint delivery and single point delivery systems for injected engines have been available for several years.
It would cost me £450 to collect all the parts to use propane, and all of it is by mail order.

Even air-cooled engines can benefit from Propane fuel... though heating the vaporiser did create some problems for some systems.

some pictures of the system fitted

the vaporiser in the vent well, supplied with coolant from the cylinders

The gas tank (black) under the bed/seat
this is a 72 litre tank giving me 240 imperial miles at 24 mpg
coupled with the fuel tank my range is over 500 miles

here's an interesting site ..these fellas did my conversion http://www.gasure.co.uk/