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best oil grade ?
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Franklinstower
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject: best oil grade ? Reply with quote

If I let me Vanagon sit for a week ('89 westy) with out starting it, a couple of my lifters will leak down. I tried Marvel Mystery Oil but it did not make any difference. I was wondering if changing oil grades will help. It is not often that I do not drive her for a week, but it does happen every couple of months. I am in the PNW where temps during the winter are between 20 and 50. they always pump back up, It just takes 5-10 minutes....

Thanks,

Paul
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ValleyHappy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the type of thread that turns into an oil weight pissing match. All I'll say is I use 20W50...because the Samba consus at the time I did my search led me to. I still get noisy lifters if my van sits for 5 days though.
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90Doka_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i use 20w50 and don't have any problems as long as i park on a level surface. They get a little noisy if i park on a hill nose up for more than a couple hours though.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like synthetics as they tend to keep the engine cleaner. This should in turn translate in to cleaner surfaces inside the lifters.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really helps to use an oil filter that has a check valve. I use a Mahle/Mann but there are others that are good also.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
Really helps to use an oil filter that has a check valve. I use a Mahle/Mann but there are others that are good also.

Why do you need a oil filter w/ check valve on the 2.1?

Isn't the oil filter mounted such that it holds oil when the pump stops? Oil can't drain out of the filter unless you park your vanagon on ts roof.


As far as the lifter noise is concerned. Nothing I've tried eliminates it. Have even been running 10-30W syn for a while and still, if I leave it for 3 or more days, that infernal click-clacking comes back. In some cases it will not go away until the vehicle as run 20 iles or more.. or the eninge been started and stopped on a half dozen errand run type trips. Winter seems worse than summer.

Cold? Condensation?

Ideas?
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ValleyHappy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Winter seems worse than summer"

You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter? The lifter clatter is caused by a lack of oil in the lifter to fully pump it up....caused by oil draining down (cuz the lilter seals don't completely seal anymore). Here is where the check valve-German filter is thought to help-prevent draindown. The 20W50 oil is thought to be, as I understand it, heavier weight and thus less prone to leakage around valve seals and others. However, people like myself have had the issue and gave it a dose of Marvels, and 'cleaned' the seals with the thinner oil...then went back to 20W50. It worked for me for the most part, but their is no getting around leaking seals I guess when it sits for 5 days.

You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter to help pump up your lifters faster...this may help. Or try a little Marvels?
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Franklinstower
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I will try a new filter;a 5/50 syn and drive it every 3 days. Then I won't start any more oil threads! Wink
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tikibus
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Search.

This topic has been beaten to death.
Overall, Heavy (viscosity) is the norm. 20W50. The Right oil Filter which has been mentioned above is right.

putting a lower oil weight into engine whilst cold is a topic in of itself.

I'm gonna put a bet out you have a Orange Oil Filter on your rig.
Not good.
Lower RPM's the Oil Idiot light Flickers.

Use the Search, Luke.

Wink
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devesvws
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one problem i dont have Laughing next time you change the oil. buy 2 wix/vw/mann oil filters, and 20w50 oil and a qt of motor flush. do not drain oil but do change oil fliter and add about a pint of motor flush to the oil. let it idle for 5 min or less. let drain for about 1 hour add new fliter and oil. that should do the trick. or try adding a qt of transmission fluid on your next oil change. that works well too.
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0to60in6min
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to hi hijack your topic but I do have a question related to oil because I have the same problem as yours...

I am thinking about to switch to synthetic oil... but I heard different opinions...

1- do not switch if the engine is using mineral oil for while.. (15k miles +)... There will be oil leaks...

2- no problem at all to switch to synthetic, anytime you want...


so the question is is it OK to switch to synthetic if the engine has 50K+ miles?...

please help... anyone has an idea?... Terry Kay, Tecentlife?

many thanks
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most engines will not leak any worse running synthetic than they did with dino. Thirty plus years ago synthetics got a bad rap for leaking, it doesn't much apply anymore.
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K58
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mine does this on occassion if I don't start it for a week and the lifter (only one) quiets down after a long drive
I believe the cure is to start it at least every 4 days and let it run for a few minutes
besides that, 20/50 Castrol and Seafoam keep it quiet
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:42 pm    Post subject: Don't Forget... Reply with quote

Don't forget for a moment to put in something to replace the Phosphorus and Zinc they've been taking out of the oils.

I've been talking to a lot of experts since Terry K raised the subject.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=268817

This is, very unfortunately, for real, folks!

Best!
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

0to60in6min wrote:
I don't want to hi hijack your topic but I do have a question related to oil because I have the same problem as yours...

I am thinking about to switch to synthetic oil... but I heard different opinions...

1- do not switch if the engine is using mineral oil for while.. (15k miles +)... There will be oil leaks...

2- no problem at all to switch to synthetic, anytime you want...


so the question is is it OK to switch to synthetic if the engine has 50K+ miles?...

please help... anyone has an idea?... Terry Kay, Tecentlife?

many thanks


First, I don't have the answer. But, I think I know why some think this *might* be the case, and it wouldn't be after only 15,000 but more like 70,000. The dino oil would get caked into the seals, but synthetic I believe is made of smaller molecules, enabling it to penetrate into, and wash away, the dino oil and allowing oil to seep through the seals. Is this what really happens? dunno Rolling Eyes
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candyman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always run 20/50 weight with mahle filters. I never use synthetic as i change my oil too often to justify the price. I don' like the idea of keeping oil in my engine over 3000 miles. in the winter i get the noisy lifters if i don't run the van for a couple of days. the cure for me is i dump about a pint of marvel mystery oil in the oil (make sure you oil level is low enough to accept this amount) and no more noisy lifters. works for me eveytime. in the summer i don't get the lifter noise so i son't bother with the marvel mystery. But i do run it in my gas tank 4 times a year!
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValleyHappy wrote:
"Winter seems worse than summer"

You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter? The lifter clatter is caused by a lack of oil in the lifter to fully pump it up....caused by oil draining down (cuz the lilter seals don't completely seal anymore). Here is where the check valve-German filter is thought to help-prevent draindown. The 20W50 oil is thought to be, as I understand it, heavier weight and thus less prone to leakage around valve seals and others. However, people like myself have had the issue and gave it a dose of Marvels, and 'cleaned' the seals with the thinner oil...then went back to 20W50. It worked for me for the most part, but their is no getting around leaking seals I guess when it sits for 5 days.

You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter to help pump up your lifters faster...this may help. Or try a little Marvels?

I'm at 160k miles on my '89.. and I'm beginning to think its just the age thing, mostly.

I've been running 10-30W thru last summer. I recently changed it out to 10-30W Syn and installed a Mann filter with the check valve. At the same time I installed an OP gauge and was all set to do some serious attention-paying to the engine.

Here's the deal, though. I live on the coast in San Fran. The temps between summer and winter are only 5-8 deg. apart. (Think Mark Twain here). So I'm not sure why I'm hearing clankity lifters more in winter than summer.. except that I drive a lot less miles in winter.

I've even considered parking the van on the street and using it more.. (clankity lifters happen after the van sits idle for 3 days or more) but then there's the rust problem of leaving it in the ocean air. I swear! There's just no winning here.

Wrt running 10-30W Syn...I'm watching OP and it looks OK, although a little low.. which I attribute to the 10-30 Syn. I'm seeing 54 at cold start running..9-10 at idle when hot and about 8psi/1000 rpm when hot (meaning at 2200rpm, I'll see about 18-20 psi oil pressure.

When Summer nears and we start driving across the valley to summer destinations I'll go back to 20-50W and see if I can get up to the magic 10psi/1000rpm number. (I'm just not ready to swap in a new engine yet.. time and money.)

Anyway.. the lifter clankity is there, regardless.. and I've mostly given up on it, because now I can't hear the lifter so much since the rear manifold cracked at the hanger and the engine sounds like an aircooled! Laughing

Marvel Mystery Oil ! Laughing
My brother used to pour that suff into his '52 Willys. Maybe he still does. Can't hurt to try it, I guess
I'll give it a shot.. and see if I can hear the lifters over the sound of my new "shortened" exhaust system.
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion.....

1) Hydraulic lifters like clean oil. I use a 15-50 Mobil 1 myself with good results. I change mine ever 5K miles along with my Mahle/Mann filter that I buy in a 6 pack so that I have them around.

2) Horizontally opposed engines (including my subuaru outback from hell) like oil filters that have a check valve in them to keep oil in the lifters.

3) The lifters need to be "zeroed out" once in a while to make sure the pre-load is corect. I do it once a year since it is pretty quick to do so.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
In my opinion.....
2) Horizontally opposed engines (including my subuaru outback from hell) like oil filters that have a check valve in them to keep oil in the lifters.

Maybe they do. I'm not questioning if the engine runs better with one filter vs another. What I am trying to get at is the "check valve" issue.

1. Are people using "check valve" and "anti-syphon valve" interchangeably? (just to claify)

and
2. What affect can either type of valve have in the case of a clankity lifter if:
a. the filter sits below the standing oil level line and
b. it is mounted at an angle upside down such that it remains completely full of oil when the vehicle sits, with engine not running.

It seems that the source of clankity lifter is likely (as ValleyHappy posted)
that the lifter is hindered by debri and/or wear.. and that condition is exacerbated when the engine sits for a period of time and the oil settles away from the surfaces of the lifter. It seems this could be worsened if the oil is not clean and some debris is left sitting on surfaces after the oil settles away.

I'm just not seeing how the check valve could improve that.. there is ALWAYS a full filter of oil there on a 2.1. No?

Am not looking for a fight.. I am just trying to understand the mechanics of this problem.. a noisy lifter just can't be a good thing.
It sounds freakin horrid!
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m2008s
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dude. use 4 qts of reg. 10w30 oil, good grade or high mileage. then put a quart if rislone in it, made to help those lifters. it works WONDERS
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