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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can write my name in the snow with mine.
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K58
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy in Maine wrote:
In my opinion.....

1) Hydraulic lifters like clean oil. I use a 15-50 Mobil 1 myself with good results. I change mine ever 5K miles along with my Mahle/Mann filter that I buy in a 6 pack so that I have them around.

2) Horizontally opposed engines (including my subuaru outback from hell) like oil filters that have a check valve in them to keep oil in the lifters.

3) The lifters need to be "zeroed out" once in a while to make sure the pre-load is corect. I do it once a year since it is pretty quick to do so.

If you're changing your Mobil1 oil every 5k you may want to read this
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes me feel pretty good about my 15-20K oil changes using 15W-50 Mobile 1. I haven't run a sample through the lab in a long time at this point, but in years past when I had several test they all came back good.


K58 wrote:
Randy in Maine wrote:
In my opinion.....

1) Hydraulic lifters like clean oil. I use a 15-50 Mobil 1 myself with good results. I change mine ever 5K miles along with my Mahle/Mann filter that I buy in a 6 pack so that I have them around.

2) Horizontally opposed engines (including my subuaru outback from hell) like oil filters that have a check valve in them to keep oil in the lifters.

3) The lifters need to be "zeroed out" once in a while to make sure the pre-load is corect. I do it once a year since it is pretty quick to do so.

If you're changing your Mobil1 oil every 5k you may want to read this
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Apparently it's not that easy. The shell is thin so it collapses and tears easily. I've read that some used a Dremel with an abrasive cutoff wheel, and others a lathe. I might mount one in my lathe and spin the filter while slicing with a Dremel or pneumatic cutoff wheel. We shall see.

I'm going to do it to a new, dry filter, though. Don't need the mess of a used one.

I dissect every filter from our fleet as it comes off the vehicle. (Well, rather, one of my employees does it.)
I'd not want to introduce any foreign swarf into the mix, so I cut the shel with a single blade. We chuck it up in a vise, the knock a very sharp wood chisel under the rolled edge. About 1 minute to showtime.
I always look for aluminum swarf. Beraings or pistons, or crankcase, mostly.
BTW, type 4's had a bypass in the filter adapter part that bolts to the crankcase. So no bypass in the filter.
And those variable duration lifters are made by Rhoads.
Al
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, that's the name, Rhoads. Thanks, Al.

I found the parting tool was very clean and fast. I said the shells are thin, then I said they're pretty thick. By pretty thick, I meant thicker than I thought they'd be. In some of those filter studies, they note the actual gauge of the shell material for comparison, so I won't post measurements here.

I've had these two cut open filters set aside for awhile now, but more pressing projects are taking my time so sorry if there's no followup yet. I'll get to it eventually. Both (Fram Tuffgard and Mann) have internal bypass valves and anti-drain valves as expected. The Fram has cardboard endcaps for the pleated paper media cartridge, while the Mann has metal ones. That seems like a glaring quality difference at first glance but there's little to suggest that the cardboard version is particularly prone to failure; it's very well-attached to the media. I suppose there's more opportunity for production variability to cause trouble with that, but that's a QC issue more than a design one. Remember this is the Tuffgard, not the downline Fram. It's probably not even made in the same plant.

Their bypass valves are of different design. What I'm most curious to know is at what pressure they would open at, and how much flow would bypass then. I thought I might be able to answer that question by measuring the orifice sizes vs. spring pressures to come up with a relative value. That kind of thing takes me a lot of time (I'm not a math whiz), so that's where I stopped.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Their bypass valves are of different design. What I'm most curious to know is at what pressure they would open at, and how much flow would bypass then. I thought I might be able to answer that question by measuring the orifice sizes vs. spring pressures to come up with a relative value. That kind of thing takes me a lot of time (I'm not a math whiz), so that's where I stopped.


The bypass opening pressure can often be found in the specification section of the manufactures catalog. it is specific to the individual filter by part number. Interesting that the Mann does have a bypass these days, I guess that a change in specificatio/design over a 40 year period is not surprising. Nice to know, but since I have never screwed a Mann onto mine it wouldn't change things for me. I prefer a Motorcraft FL400 or FL1a or equivalent because of their near universal availability.
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In about 8 years of doing this, I've noticed a great many differences in oil filter construction details. Both the German brands Mann and , was it Autobahn? Bosch? Mahle? had a LOT more folded media. I guess I should have documented my findings, but it was easily twice as much as a Fram. Perhaps 6-7 feet long stretched out.
the single Fram I took apart had actually come apart on one end and the oil was bypassing the media.
there was one other filter that was on type 4 Vanagon air cooled motor that I'd purchased in Ohio. It had a house brand filter that may have bee made in Italy. It seemed very high quality.
That Mopar Club oil filter site also gave very high marks to Purolator filters.
so, when I find myself without German, I saunter over to the Advance auto parts store and pick up a Purolator.
Can't say I remember taking one apart. (Onset of CRS? I'm in my late 50's.)
As I said, I should document it.
But my conclusion is as others. German is good. Fram is English for shit.
Al
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All Frams aren't alike.The budget orange ones are garbage. Their Extra Gaurd is slightly less crappy, but the Tough Gaurd is a pretty good filter.

If you check out those links I noted above, you can find out the breakdown on a lot of popular filters. No need to speculate, the data is there to compare. Purolators rate pretty high overall. Mobil1 is top of the line for FLAPS merchandise.
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
All Frams aren't alike.The budget orange ones are garbage. Their Extra Gaurd is slightly less crappy, but the Tough Gaurd is a pretty good filter.

I have no reason to not believe you. But my feeling for any company that would sell an engine protection product that was defective by design... my feeling is to hold them beneath contempt.
So, in a jam, I'll keep that in mind.
I like the orange color, though!
Al
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not an endorsement; just relating what others have found out. I'll use a Fram, the TG only, on my throwaway beater Subaru that doesn't get driven much, but like I said, I don't have a stake in any of this filter nonsense on my own van. I use the Trasko and recommend it highly.

http://www.trasko-usa.com/
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Mr Brown
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have been looking at finding a suitable oil for the summer. I can't get the Brad Penn here so have been looking at Mobil products. I came upon this table at the Mobil site http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf The Mobil V-twin 20-50 has a high level of phosporus, can I assume the level of zinc is also comparitively high? If so, can this oil be safely used in our Vanagons? it meets the old SG, SH spec.
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Mobil V-twin 20-50 has a high level of phosporus, can I assume the level of zinc is also comparitively high? If so, can this oil be safely used in our Vanagons? it meets the old SG, SH spec.


Alas and alack, you CAN'T assume that. Since the new standards, the industry has tried to use the Phosphorus to make up for the verboten ZDDP. It don't.

I'm using STP Red (Four Cylinder Oil Treatment) or BG MOA with my favored Castrol 20W50. If I see the 'High Mileage' Castrol at a comparable price, I might use that--it's supposed to have the ZDDP.

Best!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

any opinions on a re usable filter like a System 1 or an O-Berg ?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
Quote:
The Mobil V-twin 20-50 has a high level of phosporus, can I assume the level of zinc is also comparitively high? If so, can this oil be safely used in our Vanagons? it meets the old SG, SH spec.


Alas and alack, you CAN'T assume that. Since the new standards, the industry has tried to use the Phosphorus to make up for the verboten ZDDP. It don't.

I'm using STP Red (Four Cylinder Oil Treatment) or BG MOA with my favored Castrol 20W50. If I see the 'High Mileage' Castrol at a comparable price, I might use that--it's supposed to have the ZDDP.

Best!
The "High mileage" Castrol 20-50W is still not up to the recommended ZDDP level. I think this year it dropped to .07. You will still need to add a ZDDP additive to bring it up to .13 or better.
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
Quote:
The Mobil V-twin 20-50 has a high level of phosporus, can I assume the level of zinc is also comparitively high? If so, can this oil be safely used in our Vanagons? it meets the old SG, SH spec.


Alas and alack, you CAN'T assume that. Since the new standards, the industry has tried to use the Phosphorus to make up for the verboten ZDDP. It don't.

I'm using STP Red (Four Cylinder Oil Treatment) or BG MOA with my favored Castrol 20W50. If I see the 'High Mileage' Castrol at a comparable price, I might use that--it's supposed to have the ZDDP.

Best!


No, I'm afraid you've got it turned upside down, Rob. It's the phosphorus that EPA wants to control, but to control that the zinc level has to also be reduced, because they are both components of the ZDDP molecule. The ZDDP delivers Zn to plate surfaces against scuffing; P is just a necessary part of the delivery mechanism.

When you look at product data sheets or virgin oil analysis reports, the elements are listed separately, but in fresh product Zn and P will rise and fall together for the most part since the majority of the content of either is as parts of ZDDP. I think dvanulden is on the right track, because if P is high, Zn will probably also be high. If you have the P data, though, the Zn numbers should be there on the same sheet.

Many motorcycle and racing oils still contain adequate ZDDP. I believe the Mobil V-twin is still suitable for two-valve car engines, but look at the PDS to confirm (also bear in mind that manufacturer's PDS's may be optimistic, and only a credible VOA will actually show the content of elements you are concerned about. That's why your best resource is the VOA forums at BITOG, as other folks have already paid the money and done the legwork for you. To make an informed decision, make use of this amazing, free resource).

Here's the rub, as simple as I can explain it: when shopping for oil, look at the API starburst seal. It will often list several of the "S" and/or "C" ratings that the product meets. At this time, if the seal mentions "SM" or "CJ-4", either or both, it is NOT suitable for two-valve-per-cylinder engnes. It may list SG, SH, SJ, SL, all are fine, but if SM is also on the label, it's no good. It may list CI-4, or other lower C ratings, but if it also lists CJ-4, it's no good. I can't put it any simpler than that.
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Last edited by tencentlife on Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: I Stand Befuddled, Yet Corrected Reply with quote

Having upper cerebral activity, I defer to Chris, but the part about the Phosphorus was what I'd heard on the radio and stumbled over in my own researches. I'm kind of with Terry right now on the GM EOS. It's a function of cost, as much as anything--what's the CHEAPEST solution to the ZDDP drought?

Bucko, I didn't mean the Castrol 'High Mileage,' I meant this:

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644#top

Just to bring it up for consideration.

Best!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: I Stand Befuddled, Yet Corrected Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
Having upper cerebral activity, I defer to Chris, but the part about the Phosphorus was what I'd heard on the radio and stumbled over in my own researches. I'm kind of with Terry right now on the GM EOS. It's a function of cost, as much as anything--what's the CHEAPEST solution to the ZDDP drought?

Bucko, I didn't mean the Castrol 'High Mileage,' I meant this:

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644#top

Just to bring it up for consideration.

Best!


Good link MSINABOTTLE. Thanks for posting it. It will be good to investigate and find it's content. I'll have to go looking for it on the shelves.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: I Stand Befuddled, Yet Corrected Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
what's the CHEAPEST solution to the ZDDP drought?



ZDDPlus is about $10.00 per bottle and is loaded with ZDDP (68000 PPM zinc). I have done the calculations and 1/4 of a bottle will bring the ZDDP levels in an oil change of Castrol GTX 20w50 up to 0.13% which is the recommended levels. 1/3 of a bottle will bring you to 0.15%. This ends up costing between $2.50 - $3:30 per oil change to bring a readily available, off the shelf oil up to standard. Not an expensive solution. The only catch is that ZDDPlus is hygroscopic so you shouldn't store a partly used bottle, but you can top up the bottle with motor oil and just keep track of how much you used.

http://www.zddplus.com/

Here is a spreadsheet calculator I made for this
http://www.westfalia.gomez-perales.com/Documents/ZDDP.xls
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Penny Pinching! Reply with quote

I've been meaning to play around with that spreadsheet of Perales's and see if it can do the figuring on other additves--such as EOS, and STP Red = Four Cylinder Oil Treatment, which is $3 a bottle and you use the whole thing.

That would make it idiot proof, except that I am not just any idiot!

Shocked

Need to keep doing math.

Best!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:26 am    Post subject: ZDDP calculator Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
I've been meaning to play around with that spreadsheet of Perales's and see if it can do the figuring on other additves

I have modified my spreadsheet to now work with any additive or oil.
To calculate ZDDP levels just set your target, and set the specs of the oil and additive. (I would appreciate if somebody could independently do a set of calculations just to verify that I haven't made an error in the spreadsheet) (I think it is right) Rolling Eyes
Also if anybody has the specs for a bunch of different oils and additives, I will add them to the (short) list on the calculator.

http://www.westfalia.gomez-perales.com/Documents/ZDDP.xls
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