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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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 Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Any New Developments? |
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Winston's old fuel pump buzzed, I figured it was hosed from the previous owner's two tank re-seals. I put in a new tank before that, I'm sure it has the 7/8 mm. outlet. Now, Winston's new fuel pump has started to buzz, it kept doing it after I replaced the dark pre-filter.
While I respect Chris/10cent immeasurably, I'm inclined to think that the VW engineers wanted that gas going back to the tank for SOME reason that must have seemed good. T/check valve on a line from the return line over to a T in the pre-filter line looks a little less Rube Goldbergian--and a less-powerful pump also seems like a good solution.
I hope to hear that the final steps in the research have been taken!
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Any New Developments? |
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| msinabottle wrote: |
Winston's old fuel pump buzzed, I figured it was hosed from the previous owner's two tank re-seals. I put in a new tank before that, I'm sure it has the 7/8 mm. outlet. Now, Winston's new fuel pump has started to buzz, it kept doing it after I replaced the dark pre-filter.
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I'd found rust debris clogging the intake screen on the pump of my 91 several times when I heard it making noise. (Keep in mind, VW, in their infinite wisdom eliminated the pre-filter in the 86-up cars.)
I'd just blast the straw from a WD40 can up in there and flush it out, catching the debris with a white paper towel, to verify if I got anything out. I eventually put in a tank from an 87 parts car that I own. I'm happto say that since then I've driven about 50,000 miles with the spare pump in a bag under the seat. Murphy's law, ya know.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Any New Developments? |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
I'd found rust debris clogging the intake screen on the pump of my 91 several times when I heard it making noise. (Keep in mind, VW, in their infinite wisdom eliminated the pre-filter in the 86-up cars.)
I'd just blast the straw from a WD40 can up in there and flush it out, catching the debris with a white paper towel, to verify if I got anything out. I eventually put in a tank from an 87 parts car that I own. I'm happto say that since then I've driven about 50,000 miles with the spare pump in a bag under the seat. Murphy's law, ya know.
Al |
How did you access the screen? Through the sender hole? It seems to me that puncturing the screen and keeping or adding a prefilter would be the way to go. |
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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Throttle the Pump Down? |
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I'm just wondering if it would be possible to reduce the current to the pump and throttle it down, although I have a feeling it won't work at all with less than DC 12v.
Tram had a way to remove a pump and reverse it with a DC power supply, pumping diesel fuel through the pump to clean it. But if so many of us are having this problem, the tee/valve/rework looks promising.
These pumps are expensive! I wonder if we could find a lower-powered one that wouldn't work itself to death...
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Any New Developments? |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| 69doublecab wrote: |
I'd found rust debris clogging the intake screen on the pump of my 91 several times when I heard it making noise. (Keep in mind, VW, in their infinite wisdom eliminated the pre-filter in the 86-up cars.)
I'd just blast the straw from a WD40 can up in there and flush it out, catching the debris with a white paper towel, to verify if I got anything out. I eventually put in a tank from an 87 parts car that I own. I'm happto say that since then I've driven about 50,000 miles with the spare pump in a bag under the seat. Murphy's law, ya know.
Al |
How did you access the screen? Through the sender hole? It seems to me that puncturing the screen and keeping or adding a prefilter would be the way to go. |
Sorry if I was not clear. I mean the screen on the inlet end of the pump, not the tank screen. I wish I could get to the tank one, but I think it is at the end of a piece of hose, so it follows the fuel, sort of.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle the Pump Down? |
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| msinabottle wrote: |
These pumps are expensive! I wonder if we could find a lower-powered one that wouldn't work itself to death...
Best! |
I've probably driven over 400k miles with these pumps and never had one fail. A few times, I've heard that death rattle and that is your pump telling you to fix the tank-NOW. I've got a spare in a bag under the seat, never had to put it on.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10077
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Throttle the Pump Down? |
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| msinabottle wrote: |
I'm just wondering if it would be possible to reduce the current to the pump and throttle it down, although I have a feeling it won't work at all with less than DC 12v.
Best! |
DC motors run at speed proportional to the voltage supply.
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
if you T off the return line to the pump inlet, you must use a check valve to prevent sucking air from the return port in the tank.
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These anemic engines do not need that much volume.
John
Aircooled.Net Inc. |
<snip>
But anyway, about 2/3 of the delivered portion is being returned under most, but not all conditions.
I'm in complete agreement with WT and John that merely tee-ing into the return line has the potential for problems, mostly the chance of sucking air from the left-side tank outlet when the tank is low or during right cornering (feel the g's!! Wow!!!). If air is presented at a suction opening, vs. a liquid, a pump will suck the air every time. For that reason, although I think dumping the return flow just upstream of the pump is an excellent idea, I think it would work best under various conditions if all return flow were routed directly there, and the left side tank nipple blocked off. A check valve does the same thing, but at additional cost and complexity, with no additional benefits I can imagine.
I have never thought that fuel heating would be the slightest issue. The fuel flows thru the engine bay part of the lines so quickly, it couldn't pick up much heat. And the area of exposure in lines not within the engine bay is proportionally larger, so it has greater opportunity to shed heat than to absorb it, allowing that heat flow into and out of the liquid is negligible at the high velocities anyway. So to that I say: nothing to see here folks; move along.
Anyway, it's great to see an experiment in alleviating the pump buzz that promises some concrete results. |
Typically, a fuel delivery problem will limit the horsepower output of the engine. Even regardless of what rpm it is running. Like the engine might only go a certain speed in one gear, and will cut out at about the same mph in another gear. I'm in agreement with you about the fuel heating. If this were a factor, the engine would run differently as the tank got emptier. And I'm sure there is some pretty wide tolerance in selecting fuel pumps by the manufacturer. They used the same pump on a 75 up Beetle, if I remember correctly. Still, it has to be enough to produce 95 hp without a substantial drop in pressure.
But, I question if the pump would deliver anything like that under pressure. I've had one apart and they use a spinning cage with small rollers in an eccentric cavity. I'd bet they deliver as little as 50% when hooked up to the pressure regulator. Perhaps I'll pull the return line off soon and measure the delivery.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: New Tank, Two Filters... |
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I've got a relatively new tank (<2 years), I've always run a pre-filter, in fact, that was all Winston had when I bought him and Chris terrified me into installing a metal cannister filter right after the pump.
I need to drive him tomorrow, my thought is to put a can of BG-44K into him (fuel system cleaner) and run that through the pump and the injectors when I fuel him. I'll also look into pulling the fuel line, having a look inside the pump and/or blasting with something--not sure what--and seeing what that does.
We're kind of going in circles here--we're back to some people saying that they've never had a problem, and other people saying that they've often had a problem. I find it worrisome that two fuel pumps would start howling off a clean tank and a filtered fuel line. I replaced the fuel regulator on general principles because of that.
I have an earlier post about this from right when I bought Winston.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137296
Sigh.
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: New Tank, Two Filters... |
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| msinabottle wrote: |
I've got a relatively new tank (<2 years), I've always run a pre-filter, in fact, that was all Winston had when I bought him and Chris terrified me into installing a metal cannister filter right after the pump.
I need to drive him tomorrow, my thought is to put a can of BG-44K into him (fuel system cleaner) and run that through the pump and the injectors when I fuel him. I'll also look into pulling the fuel line, having a look inside the pump and/or blasting with something--not sure what--and seeing what that does.
We're kind of going in circles here--we're back to some people saying that they've never had a problem, and other people saying that they've often had a problem. I find it worrisome that two fuel pumps would start howling. I replaced the fuel regulator on general principles because of that.
I have an earlier post about this from right when I bought Winston) off a clean tank and a filtered fuel line:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137296
Sigh.
Best! |
Just because you've got a new tank doesn't mean it is a clean tank. I put a new tank into my diesel last January. I bought a new one (large filler size from BD on sale cause the edges were bent!) I flushed it out and found dead insects, BD papers from a shredder and cardboard dust from a long journey from China!
Then I found the real source of my problem: A hole in the top of one of the expansion tanks was letting in a little bit of water.
And I didn't say I'd not had a problem. I had a lot of problems on my 91 (A PA car that apparently sat for some years.) I just didn't let it ruin my pump. And yes, I put a metal pre-filter on it. NAPA for a Ford, I think 3/8- 3/8" I need 11mm, but this is working okay. I eventually put in a used tank from my old 87. I don't think I've fooled with it in 25k miles. I feel this car will easily do 90mph, so I must be getting some pretty good flow thru the NAPA filter.
(I wish my problems were only fuel pumps. Last week my employee drove my 87 home and put a rod thru the block. Short block completely shot. I'm totally po'd!)
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: Ow! |
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Very sorry about the rod and knock thing.
The new tank was absolutely spotless inside and out when I got it, I looked into it very carefully, capped all openings, and sprayed it with Mercury Corrison Preventative--similar to WaxOyl-- to keep the exterior from rusting.
I did smell gasoline when I was trying to figure out what was going on, it seemed to be coming from the fill cap. It was quite a hot day--hottest of the year so far--and he'd been parked in the sun, so I figured it was just expansion and vapor.
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ow! |
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| msinabottle wrote: |
Very sorry about the rod and knock thing.
The new tank was absolutely spotless inside and out when I got it, I looked into it very carefully, capped all openings, and sprayed it with Mercury Corrison Preventative--similar to WaxOyl-- to keep the exterior from rusting.
I did smell gasoline when I was trying to figure out what was going on, it seemed to be coming from the fill cap. It was quite a hot day--hottest of the year so far--and he'd been parked in the sun, so I figured it was just expansion and vapor.
Best! |
Thanks. It really got me down.
There is no vent to the air anywhere near the expansion tank. The hoses from the tops of the expansion tanks both tee into the carbon cannister in the rear near the starter. You have a hole someplace. Not a bad idea to take the expansion tanks off anyway and clean up the sheet metal/ sealer. This is where a lot of seam rust starts. The sealer fails, lets water in the back of the seam.
I've actually had to whack the x-tank back into place with a board and hammer, they fit so tight.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
Last edited by Alan Brase on Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rodknock
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 516
Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
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The title of this thread should be "Fuel Pump Noise." Understand the noise we are talking about here are bubbles (cavitation). A constant hum/whir/ringing/singing of a pump, loud or soft, is not the same as the sound of cavitation (bubbles) in the fuel pump. Note also that you can really hear the cavitation while stopped and idling, hard to hear when crusing along.
Msinabottle, check the hoses at the bottom of your expansion tanks, I just replaced all four and I get no gas smell now (re-sealed my tank last year). They can leak vapors ever so slightly.
I don't know if everyone with a 7mm tank outlet has the cavitation problem, but I do know that many of us, even with new clean tanks, filters, & pumps are very clearly having this problem. I beleive cavitation is the reason my Bosch fuel pump lastetd only 12,000 miles. Cavitation is bad for pumps, period. I know from my own testing that if I put a 7mm inlet to the pump (take the gas tank totally out of the equation), I get cavitation. With an 11mm inlet, no cavitation. 82Westyman confirmed that if you tap off the return line and into the pump inlet the cavitation goes away. The only question now is whether to keep the return line hooked up to the tank, thus creating the possibility of drawing air when fuel levels are low. VW engineers hooked the return line to the tank for some reason, and I beleive strongly it is to cool the fuel. In 1/4 mile drag racing, we iced the manifold to keep fuel/air mix supply cool as possible. I am leaning toward putting a check valve between the return line T and the tank return inlet to avoid the air drawing problem, assuming I can find such a check valve. |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Rodknock wrote: |
The title of this thread should be "Fuel Pump Noise." Understand the noise we are talking about here are bubbles (cavitation). A constant hum/whir/ringing/singing of a pump, loud or soft, is not the same as the sound of cavitation (bubbles) in the fuel pump. Note also that you can really hear the cavitation while stopped and idling, hard to hear when crusing along.
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WHAT!! There is more than one sound for a malfunctioning fuel pump? that is hilarious! Kinda like the Eskimo having 13 (or whatever it is) different words for snow. Oh great, now we need to know the difference between Death Rattle I and Death Rattle II?
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: Still Resolving... |
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Rodknock has put it well, the final configuration of the tee/return fix has yet to be settled. We just need a few more experimenters. I did check the tank on the passenger's side, and the hoses, and SAW no leaks, I'll have to look more thoroughly. That's where I smelled the gas, but you should also note that it was winter-formula gas (with Sta-Bil and HEET) on a very hot summer day. There had to have been SOME vapor.
The good news is that the howling seems to have stopped for the moment, of course I clouded the picture by applying too many variables. Winston had less than 5 gallons in his tank, I'd run him VERY low on the last tank, partly to see how far he'd go on a tank, then emptied 5 gallons from a leaking can into him just to keep him moving.
I decided that just the tank being low might have something to do with the problem, so I filled him with his usual mixture of regular unleaded (I'm old) and Marvel Mystery Oil--and a can of BG44K, at <gulp!> $24! I thought that might devout and gunk inside the pump or the injectors, it's superb stuff and it has been a long time since I've used it.
At any rate, though, and I did listen, the pump was quiet. It wasn't HOT at the worst of it, but it was noisy and vibrating. The smell of gas wasn't profound, I should note, at least not until I changed the old pre-filter!
I'll have a good long look at things. We did inspect all hoses and tanks when we replaced the tank itself, and we did use most of a Van Cafe tubes and seals kit in the reassembly.
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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82WestyMan
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Joined: December 28, 2006
Posts: 1098
Location: Western OR
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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one last thing to add....
that intermitten hesitation i was hunting down and thought I cured with the gas line mod, well...
i started my trip and after about 5-6 hrs it started again... a couple of times it just killed the van but restarted before I could come to a complete stop....
then in the middle of MS, in the middle of nowhere... the van just died and wouldn't start, turned it over and no smell of gas at the tailpipes....sat there for a few, thought about all the things i had done and
a year ago i had put in a new dual relay and thought, you know, that's one thing i had never changed... and it turns out i had two (used) extra's with me...
long story short... it took twice as long to unpack the tools, parts and van enough to get at the engine compartment and repack it all then it took to change the relay...
not a hint of the problem since....
just goes to show you just because its new doesn't mean it's good
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82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine |
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msinabottle
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005
Posts: 3492
Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: Thank you! |
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Thank you for the additional data about your mod and problem. We're still collecting it and we'll figure it all out.
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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pushkick
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2007
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: fuel tank issues |
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so given you have taken a long trip i guess the noise issue is no longer a issue?
| Quote: |
On the issue of the pump heating up
Just drove it home from work... 10 miles and 8+ of those on the interstate
Pulled into my drive, turn the westy off, walked around to the passenger side and put my hand on the pump
Cool as a cucumber |
no heating of fuel issue? |
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foodeater
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Joined: July 13, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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I was having an issue with cavitation (noise) in the fuel pump and I remembered 10¢'s idea for putting a longer length of hose between the plastic pre-filter and the pump. for my application it has worked. I moved the pre-filter closer to the tank. Its now only about 2 inches away from the tank. I put in about 6 inches of the larger diameter hose between the pre-filter and pump. and the noise is gone!!!
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msinabottle
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Joined: September 20, 2005
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Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: BTDT |
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Mine's about there now. Chris's ideas are good, though, I may re-do the hoses with new, good, F.I. hose and those smooth NAPA clamps, at which time I'll get the lengths to the 'tencent' specs.
Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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