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David Raistrick Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2004 Posts: 533 Location: Geneva, Florida
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI reproduction 30PICT-1 Carburetor - An in-depth revi |
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glutamodo wrote: |
I tried running the first EMPI carb as I got it. Which had with a 125 main jet (they come with 120, the owner of the carb had changed it) , 55 pilot jet, and an air correction jet stamped with 115. 115?? That is tiny, smaller than any such a/c jet I’ve seen on a 30PICT carb. And I don't think it really is 115. Look at this comparison picture - that "115" looks to me like it's bigger than the 125y.
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A note here:
I just spent some time with a pile of air correction jets and some jet guages (really pin gauges...).
The typical rule of thumb has always been that Solex jet sizes are a mm measurement (so a 127 main is 1.27mm, 112.5 is 1.125, a g65 pilot is .65, etc). This held close to true in my testing for main, pilot, accel pump, etc.
This was NOT the case for the air correction jets, though.
Of all the 125y jets I had floating around, -ZERO- of them were even 1.25. They were either 1.10 (most of them) or 1.15mm (the gauges I have are .05 increment at that size). (the other sizes I had were similarly not related to what was marked on them)
So with that in mind, referencing the EMPI carb with a "115" AC jet, I'd say that that's more likely the accurate hole size, instead of whatever standard Solex was playing with for their AC jets and matches up to the old 125y.
fwiw, etc etc. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: |
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The reason I captioned that EMPI A/C jet with a question mark though is that the hole appeared to be larger than the Solex one. Probably an optical trick but it did look that way. |
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johnR Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009 Posts: 668 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:58 am Post subject: |
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I posted this question a couple weeks ago and didn't get a response, so since it's relevant here...
EMPI lists two part numbers, 1288 and 1292 IIRC, for a 30 pict-1 and a 31 pict-3. Anyone know the differences and why you would choose one or the other? I have a 1500 single port. Thanks. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:23 am Post subject: |
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The 30PICT-1 is a much simpler carb. The 31PICT-3 was the carb used on 1300 DUAL PORT engines in non-USA applications and was basically a downsized 34PICT-3.
I have no idea though exactly what EMPI has under that number for a 31PICT-3 - if it's like the Brosol H30/31PICT or what. But given the choice, I'd go with the simple PICT-1. |
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johnR Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009 Posts: 668 Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I found the EMPI catalog page http://www.empius.com/2010_catalog/empi2010_pg107.html. This is the full extent of info on the 31 PICT-3: "98-1292-B Brosol/Solex Carb. 31 PICT-3, Dual Arm, 12-Volt Choke (Ref. P/N 113 129 029A)"
Yes, it seems clear the 30 PICT-1 is simpler and the better choice in general, if one wants to gamble on an EMPI carb. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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My guess, since they say it's Brosol, is that it's the normal H30/31PICT carb (which is that "universal" hybrid/bastard combination of the 1970 30PICT-3 and the later 30-31-34PICT-3 carbs. ) |
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NTM1971 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2010 Posts: 67
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I am curious if the current batch of EMPI 30's still requires the mods that you went over in such good detail back in 08. I was thinking about picking one up for the 1600 SP that I am building.
When you say you had to pull out the vacuume advance fitting, is it just a press fit in the carb? Just latch onto it with pliers and yank? When it came time to replace it did you have to use any sort of adhesive to make sure it did not vibrate loose? Want to make sure if I do end up having to do these minor mods I don't jack it up and throw away $150 bucks. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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I do not know.
However I did get one of those other China-made 30PICT-1s this summer (Euromax is one of those who sell them) and have been running it on the 1600DP in my Baja and it's been awesome for me. I did test the vacuum pull, but I'm not sure where I put the notes I made. It was OK though. I'm running it with a 113905205K distributor.
Here's a couple of photos from a few months back when I first got it:
CIP sells these for 10 dollars less than the EMPI, I notice.
(they still have their usual incorrect distributor advice in their listing, about using an 043905205 distributor with it - totally wrong.)
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D129%2D027%2DF
-Andy |
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mtzracing Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2009 Posts: 53 Location: Concord, Ca
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Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: The off road mod version of this EMPI 30 pict |
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I have this carb from EMPI modified by them for off road; no choke, external float vent and dual throttle springs. It is in a 40 horse sp with a 113 905 205 M vac only distributor. All tune up specs are by the book, I'm still struggling with carb adjustment. I took off a worn 009 for the vac advance thinking that would help and it did some, smoothed out quite a bit, I'm thinking its carb now, running rich for sure, I smell like gas as I sit here. I'm going to grab a vac gauge at work and run the test you did to determine if I should dare the mod. Thanks for the great post. If you have any further advise for my application please post up.
Mtz |
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volksian Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2011 Posts: 78 Location: Birmingham, UK
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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glutamodo wrote: |
The 28PICT-1 is better though, it's got the bigger choke that can later be upgraded to 12V and the better choke pulloff diaphram setup. Of course, you can just put that carb's top on an earlier body. I ran one that way for well over 10 years. |
I've got a 28PICT-1 on my '65, which to get through the UK MOT, I had to convert to 12V. However, it's been gradually running like a bag of nails ever since. As far as I'm aware, everything is stock on the engine apart from the converting components - I've kept all the original bits for a reverse conversion when I'm ready.
So the 6V to 12V conversion meant using one of those drop voltage resistor bits on the choke, but I'm not convinced it's really working that well so would like a 12V replacement choke, but, alas, no-one in the UK appears to sell such an item for the 28PICT-1.
Any advice on such matters would be gratefully received.
Slowly doing all the usual bits - replacing sparks, ignition bits, valve clearances etc etc, but would really like to get rid of these drop down voltage components which are difficult to site and just give out loads of heat.
I've got a stock distributor. Do people think I should change this? If so what to?
Cheers
Ian |
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GA_Boy Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2006 Posts: 1405 Location: Jefferson, GA
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Andy, PM sent.
marvin |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="volksian"]
glutamodo wrote: |
So the 6V to 12V conversion meant using one of those drop voltage resistor bits on the choke, but I'm not convinced it's really working that well so would like a 12V replacement choke, but, alas, no-one in the UK appears to sell such an item for the 28PICT-1.
Any advice on such matters would be gratefully received.
Slowly doing all the usual bits - replacing sparks, ignition bits, valve clearances etc etc, but would really like to get rid of these drop down voltage components which are difficult to site and just give out loads of heat.
I've got a stock distributor. Do people think I should change this? If so what to?
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What kind of a resistor did you use? Usually those ones for the wiper motor aren't appropriate for the choke, the resistance value is incorrect.
Your stock 65 distributor, as long as it's working right, should be fine.
So you changed nothing except going to 12V? The carb and all, is the same? The 28PICT-1 in 65 has the larger choke and any VW spares shop should have a 12V version that will fit it just fine. Unless someone's done some parts swapping on your carb.
-Andy |
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volksian Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2011 Posts: 78 Location: Birmingham, UK
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:11 am Post subject: |
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glutamodo wrote: |
What kind of a resistor did you use? Usually those ones for the wiper motor aren't appropriate for the choke, the resistance value is incorrect.
Your stock 65 distributor, as long as it's working right, should be fine.
So you changed nothing except going to 12V? The carb and all, is the same? The 28PICT-1 in 65 has the larger choke and any VW spares shop should have a 12V version that will fit it just fine. Unless someone's done some parts swapping on your carb.
-Andy |
Thanks for your response Andy - highly appreciated. Yes everything is stock - or at least apart from the 12V converty things, nothing has changed (I went for a 12V alternator rather than a dynamo - changes the look though eh if you like that stock feel).
Are we allowed to link in to other sites here? I bought a 12V conversion kit from a UK supplier who really didn't supply everything I needed and had to keep going back to them. On their recommendation, the resistor I received was similar to an "EMPI 9384 voltage drop resistor" - but I think this is wrong for a heating element if only for 50W usage?
Yes I'm sort of having fun with the distributor at the moment tinkering with the usual service parts so haven't made any decision to diss it yet.
Just wondering why a 12V conversion should turn it into a bag of nails. However, I have had the manifold off and various bits (got some new manifold gaskets just in case), so I'm wondering if air leakage is a problem. Anyway, just intend to get everything that should be replaced sorted and then concentrate on the fine tuning.
I just love the fact that I can do all this stuff again since first having a Beetle during my teenage years.
As for the choke, I've found a supplier in the UK whose information contradicts others, and like you, they insist their 12V choke coil can be used on the 28 PICT-1, so for a few quid (£13 inc VAT), I might as well give it a go. Got to be better than the voltage drop resistor.
PS - carefully keeping ALL stock parts removed for 12V conversion for reverse swap in the future. I'm even tempted to find an alternative complete engine and take out the original and rebuild as a 100% stock unit. Don't know yet. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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volksian wrote: |
Are we allowed to link in to other sites here? I bought a 12V conversion kit from a UK supplier who really didn't supply everything I needed and had to keep going back to them. On their recommendation, the resistor I received was similar to an "EMPI 9384 voltage drop resistor" - but I think this is wrong for a heating element if only for 50W usage?
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Go ahead and post the links! TheSamba, being an independent site, doesn't pander to any particular sponsor.
And yes, that kind of resistor is not correct.
Quote: |
However, I have had the manifold off and various bits (got some new manifold gaskets just in case), so I'm wondering if air leakage is a problem. Anyway, just intend to get everything that should be replaced sorted and then concentrate on the fine tuning. |
Aha! I wonder if this is it. Did you dig out the old intake manifold "crush" seals on the heads? They get smooshed down in the intake port and can look like they are part of the head and forgotten, and a new gasket stacked on top of it won't make a seal. (did it myself, back 20 years ago)
The biggest problem when you have such leaks is getting a good idle though.
Spraying something flammable, like ether cold-start spray, or carb+choke cleaner at where the manifold meets the heads, while the engine is idling will show up as an instant blip in engine speed.
Here's some comparisons between the chokes for the top half of 28PICT and a 28PICT-1 carbs:
And while the 12V version of the larger style choke looks different, it's the same diameter and fits.
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volksian Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2011 Posts: 78 Location: Birmingham, UK
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Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 am Post subject: |
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You are a magic man Andy, many thanks. I shall whip off the choke and take a look. Also I will try your spray procedure on the manifold ASAP and check - I suspect this will be driver's side (UK 1 & 2 cyls). I've got to admit, I wasn't happy with the reverse assembly procedure at the time. But I can just about get an idle. Currently, It splutters to a stall on heavy acceleration, and it'll "phutt-phutt" along on gentle persuasion!!!!!
I notice the old sparks condition are: 1 & 2 cyls v.rich, 3 & 4 cyls v.rich and slightly oiled. But they were removed after a very short run into the garage.
Get back to you shortly. Many thanks again. Appreciated.
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Edit 17:40 GMT 8 Nov .
volksian wrote: |
I shall whip off the choke and take a look. |
No need. I clearly have the 6V larger housing (ceramic? white structure) of the 28 PICT-1, so feel confident replacing it with the following from VeeWee in the UK:
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volksian Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2011 Posts: 78 Location: Birmingham, UK
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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glutamodo wrote: |
And yes, that kind of resistor is not correct. |
Replaced with 12V choke. Easy peasy. Saved resistor for another application if it isn't wrecked!!!! The info above was fandabeedosee.
glutamodo wrote: |
Aha! I wonder if this is it. Did you dig out the old intake manifold "crush" seals on the heads? They get smooshed down in the intake port and can look like they are part of the head and forgotten, and a new gasket stacked on top of it won't make a seal. (did it myself, back 20 years ago)
The biggest problem when you have such leaks is getting a good idle though.
Spraying something flammable, like ether cold-start spray, or carb+choke cleaner at where the manifold meets the heads, while the engine is idling will show up as an instant blip in engine speed. |
I didn't bother with the spraying in the end, just took off the manifold because I knew you were right given the explanation above as I didn't remember taking off any washer/gasket. Lo and behold, they were there - hidden in the recesses as you described. And they took some digging out too!!! A few minutes cleaning up later, surfaces flattened of any detritus, and gaskets positioned, the manifold was re-installed. So I spent my Sunday afternoon crouching over a VW, putting bits back on, tidying up, re-timing, valve clearances (started with that job) and re-igniting. Wow. What a difference!!!
So thanks Andy, you were spot on mate. I really appreciate you handing out this knowledge and it saved me hours messing with distributors, carburettors and other alternatives for an engine spitting nails.
Now I have to soothe my 47-year old lower back which is aching like mad.....and also find out what the grinding/humming noise from the front wheels is, that goes away when I turn or slow right down!!!! But I'll save that for another thread after searching for some answers on this terrific message board.
Oh the joys of Bug ownership!!!! |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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volksian wrote: |
So thanks Andy, you were spot on mate. I really appreciate you handing out this knowledge and it saved me hours messing.... |
No problem, glad to help. Glad you got it sorted out. happy motoring! |
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badufay Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2010 Posts: 361 Location: Olympia, WA
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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I thought I read somewhere that the new EMPI 30 PICT 1 has been corrected and now is actually a good carb. I did see in their newest catalog, the street version even comes with a threaded on fuel hose inlet. My rebuilt/bushed German made one is awesome right now, just wondering I guess....can anyone confirm this about the latest EMPI carb?
Ben _________________ Current: 1976 VW Bus, 3 spd auto 2.0L FI; 2017 GTI S, 6 spd man; 2017 Jetta SE TSI, 5 spd man; 2006 Golf GL 2.0L, auto
Previous: 2015 Golf S TDI, 6 spd man; 2015 Jetta SE TDI, 6 spd man; 12 Jetta 2.5L, 04 Jetta 2.0L, 02 Golf 2.0L, 98 Jetta 2.0L, 98 Golf 2.0L, 98 Cabrio 2.0L, 95 Golf 2.0L, 87 golf GTI 16 valve 1.8L, 86 Cabriolet 1.6L, 80 Audi 4000 1.6L, 76 Audi Fox 1.6L, 76 VW Beetle 1.6L, 74 Audi Fox 1.5L, 69 VW Beetle 1.5L |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2002 Posts: 593 Location: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Great thread!
I wish i read this before i toileted money on one...
I just put one of these on my singleport, and it barely idles, the choke doesnt work as well as my stripped out stocker and its not playing well with my og dist.. furthermore the 1/4 barbed fuel inlet sucks IMO, because the stock fuel pump outlet is happy with 5mm hose...
I guess i should have bought something else.. -very unhappy with this product. |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26301 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Once I tweaked those two EMPI 30PICT1 carbs that I played with, so the idle advance signal wasn't so high, I was perfectly happy with how they ran. |
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