need help guys..starting issue.....

[TheVintageVw]

aight so i put in a new starter in the 54... 6v of course.... put everything back... cranked the car once... it cranked....then went to put in some starter fluid(cars been sitting) cranked it again... i could sorta hear grinding from the starter.... after that i get nothing.... no crank, no sound nada... its as if there is no starter... rechecked everything and its fine... banged it a few times with a wrench... still nothing?

any ideas? this is a rebuilt original german bosch starter.....

thanks

[djkeev]

hi,

Just curious, what was wrong that you put in a new starter???

If you say, doesn't crank, no noise, nada, it was as if there were no starter.......hmmmmmm, maybe your problem never was the starter but wiring/connection problems or a switch problem??
How is your ground strap from the tranny to the chassis? Clean tight?
starter nose shaft bushing good?, you put in a new one?

Just a thought

I'd take out your "new" starter and bench test it. (make sure you hang onto it or clamp it and make the correct connections) That will identify the starter as being bad, if it works on the bench, something in the car needs attention.
How is your ground strap from the tranny to the chassis? Clean tight?

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[TheVintageVw]

i replaced the starter because the other one was bad(it would crank super slow) replaced battery etc.. got the old starter tested and yeah it was bad, so i replaced it......

the tranny strap is nice and tight, tried 2 different batteries... undid the wires from the starter and reinstalled them etc etc...

whats weird is that first initial crank was perfect.... after that cranked 2 more times but with some grinding noise, starter is installed correctly and tighly so that isnt the problem....

[ericktheelectrician]

sounds like the starter bushing , did you replace the bushing in your transmission?

[TheVintageVw]

bushing is not replaced.. is that 100% required to replace?

[ericktheelectrician]

yes it should be replaced when you change the starter , it is a little tough to get the old one out but when you get the old one out use a socket the same size as the bushing to get the new one in this will all make sense when you're actually doing the removal and installation of the bushing , good luck and let us know if that works

[TheVintageVw]

but how would a bushing prevent a click, a turn or anything from the starter? could it cause the starter to do NOTHING?

thanks

[djkeev]

Hi,

If you take the starter out of the car, you can grab the nose shaft by the drive gear and wiggle it around.
That play can prevent the armature from turning for it binds against the windings on the side.

A solonoid uses an electro magnet to complete an electrical circuit.

A bad bushing most likely won't stop the solonoid from going click unless the drive pinion is stuck out in the ring gear for some reason (maybe a bad starter bushing??) there would not be any click for the steel shaft that the electromagnet draws back that makes the click sound is already drawn back and in position to start the car. That is another issue you need to check out.

If the solonoid is bad the electromagnet either doesn't move to make the connection or does move but doesn't make the connection to direct the current to the brushes.

The starter solonoid is just a giant electrical relay. While making the connection it uses a lever to push the drive pinion into the ring gear on most starter styles.

Just because it was "rebuilt" doesn't mean it is a good starter. Take an old starter, Clean it up, slap a coat of clear lacquer on it and there you have it, a "rebuilt" starter, throw it in the box and ship it out.
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[ericktheelectrician]

the starter you just bought might also be bad I just had this same issue less than 2 weeks ago , I replaced the starter with a rebuilt starter from Carquest and it was bad from the rebuilder took it back and the 2nd starter worked fine , but you still need to replace the bushing which should come with the starter when you buy them , and after all that is done if it still won't start you have electrical issues with the car itself and you'll have to figure out where you are losing voltage

[johnshenry]

I know you said your new starter was 6volt, but I'll throw this out. I saw a 12 volt (130 tooth flywheel) starter installed on a 6 volt (108 tooth) flywheel/engine once.......

.......... and there was LOTS of grinding noise.

Doubt that is your case, but if you find that the starter gear teeth are all chewed up.....
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John Henry

'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab

[DMNCLNR]

My guess would be that the bushing caused the starter to bind up, and if you were still cranking on it you could have blew a fuse, or grounded out a wire.
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[TheVintageVw]

okay took the starter out.. went to a local starter shop and got it bench tested.... works fine... i put it back in.... cranked once.. after that just clicks and after bout like 5 clicks no nothing again..... no click nothing.....

[djkeev]

and did you look at the starter bushing???
Was the pinion messed up?
Was the pinion stuck in the ring gear?
Is the starter bushing the proper size for the starter shaft?
IS the pinion the right one for your fly wheel?
Also
A free spinning no load bench test is a whole lot different than under stress cranking engine usage.

What happens if you CAREFULLY hot wire it installed in the car?
(Key off, coil wire pulled out, wheels blocked and jack stands)

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[JonaWerks]

Hi All,

I know this is an old thread but I thought I would add my recent experience in case it might help another VW enthusiast.

Issue: 57 Beetle, extremely slow crank, turns over once or twice, then makes a grinding noise and then nothing. Try again and simply get a click or nothing at all.

Background: Rebuilt 36HP, bench tested and broken in with all new wires, new O'Riellys starter and a new 6V Napa battery in a 57 tranny housing with brand new bushing.

Installed engine in the car. Used same new starter, new wires from battery to starter, new negative cable and new starter bushing. Replaced the trans ground strap and cleaned the contacts. This is the original tranny, original flywheel; just a new starter (why not), battery, bushing and wires. You would expect it to turn over and start right up just like it did on the bench. Nope. Extremely slow crank, turns over once or twice, then makes a grinding noise and then nothing.

Went out and bought a new Interstate 6V, tested the voltage (6.4), cranking voltage (4.7) and all wires appear to be fine. Still no luck.

Took out new battery, new starter and put them in the bench test harness. All works fine. Then I put the original 57 starter with the Napa battery in the harness. They work fine too.

So now I’m out of ideas. Why not put the Napa battery and the original starter back in the car and give it a try. Vroom, started right up!

The O'Riellys starter works on the harness but not in the car? Does it need additional grounding? (Tried that too. I put jumper cables from the starter to the frame. no improvement) Does the original starter have more torque? Not sure why the original starter works and the new O'Riellys doesn't. But for folks experiencing this issue it might be worth trying an older, original rebuilt VW starter over any auto parts store starter in your 6V car.
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57 Ragtop Beetle
82 Rabbit Pickup Diesel LX
14 Passat SE - Totalled
21 Tiguan SE

[Eric&Barb]

Did you clean up the surfaces on the transaxle and starter so as to have a good ground connection between the two??

Maybe when you reinstalled the old starter, you got just enough connetion thru the mounting bolts.
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[JonaWerks]

Hi Eric&Barb,

Thanks for the good idea....everything was quoted down

I thought that would have been covered when I used the jumper cable from the starter to the frame too.

Perhaps I'll try again and make sure its spotless.

Thanks!
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57 Ragtop Beetle
82 Rabbit Pickup Diesel LX
14 Passat SE - Totalled
21 Tiguan SE

[Eric&Barb]

[JonaWerks]

Ha! Sorry about that...it should have read 'wiped down'. I used brake cleaner
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57 Ragtop Beetle
82 Rabbit Pickup Diesel LX
14 Passat SE - Totalled
21 Tiguan SE