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Dual relief oiling system. How it works.
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alex77
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

O.k so I just build a 1641cc whit a mexibeetle case that has hydraulic lifters and have a 26mm pump and it runs great but when i drive more than 40 miles the oil light turns on at 900 rpms and the oil dipstick was to hot for me to pull out.
so today i did the oil change and replace the relief spring to see if it will correct the oil light comming on at 900 rpms whe engines at operating temperatures.

also I'm waiting for my oil pressure gauge ad temperature gauge to arrive so i can have a more acurate reading on pressure and temp.
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jesus_chrysler
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcrusher my case was the same and I also opened up the sliger drain. You running a 30mm?
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RockCrusher
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jesus_chrysler wrote:
Rockcrusher my case was the same and I also opened up the sliger drain. You running a 30mm?

No I run the blueprinted 26mm.

RC
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bowen71
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So looking at this what woud cause the oil pressure to build up slowly? When I start my car the pressure is slow to follow. It doesnt knock or tap like its not getting oil and I have changed the gauge and sender.

Also if you have a external cooler and the stock cooler and the stock cooler was clogged what would be the signs?
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you observe this on a mechanical gauge? It might be your electric gauge is slow to respond.
?
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bowen71
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I changed the gauge and sender its doing the same thing. Also I have a 10psi drop in pressure when warmed up.

I am going to put in an adjustable oil pressure regulator and see if it will fix the problem.

I have read this complete thread twice and I am confused is it pressure or temp that control the flow through the cooler?

I assume pressure, as the spring doesnt know how hot oil is. So when I start my car and its cold I have more pressure due to the oil not being as thin and as it warms up and thins out I lose pressure. Which in turn routes the oil to the cooler until it cools down and becomes thick again which gives me more pressure and routes the oil around the cooler.

Would this ever affect oil pressure on the bottom end of the scale or just the top end of the scale.

If I have low oil pressure warm at an idle it wouldnt be a spring and plunger problem it would something else. Or would it affect both equally until the oil cooled down and became thick agian and the pressure would rise back up.

Also which is the control and which is the relief? pulley or flywheel side?
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Hippie
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the regulator/reliefs are oil pressure operated. If the oil is the right viscosity range per the original VW engineering, then the pressure is supposed to be right when the oil temperature is right.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

might be stuck plunger/piston.dead bearing/lifter bore. hmm what size are the lifter bores in the oe hydro cases?are the cases any deferent?
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cooler valve is in the back, pressure valve in the front(by flywheel).

The two main causes I can think of for "oil pressure rises slow on startup"
-Gauge is slow to respond
-Oil filter or cooler has a lot of air trapped in it.

If the engine has not been started in weeks the oil might drain out of the cooler or filter.

Oil pressure hot at 900 rpm idle may be as low as 8, even 5 psi, freaky, but semi-normal. Many electric gauges cannot even measure this low.
What I'd say is normal is a good 30-40 psi cruising along at 3500 or so rpm.
What is your gauge telling you?
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bowen71
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guage at 950 is at 10psi hot and at 36-3800 rpm its about 35psi maybe 40 if I get on it a little and then it will stay at 40 for a while then go back to 35psi or so.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds ok to me. You think that is too low?
Could be a little higher I spose, but I'd run it just like it is.
If you want, go ahead and try slightly stronger spring on the pressure valve, just a little.


Last edited by modok on Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bowen71 wrote:
The guage at 950 is at 10psi hot and at 36-3800 rpm its about 35psi maybe 40 if I get on it a little and then it will stay at 40 for a while then go back to 35psi or so.
marks bug has a spot!!!see spot run .modock is that enough pressure??realy I have never had any gauge on any of my vw motors.I check everything,all sizes&bores for clearance. the way I see it if you loose pressure by the time you see it it is too late any way.so I have always just used my ears& my butt,my eyes waching how long it takes the light to go out &come on after shutdown. & 30mm pumps.& soft bypass spring.( when using 2 coolers).but unless you can do everything your self you might need a gauge. crap!! I nolonger have a balancer!!!reckon I might need to get a gauge now.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same here, I make sure the clearances are like I want and don't worry about the pressure much.
I guess we can look in the service manual..............
Manual says min pressure 28 psi @ 2500 rpm with 160 degree 30 WT oil.
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wicked1lbc
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok so I have a 2007cc AS21 case with the VW/Audi symbols stamped. after reading prior posts it seems i have a 30mm pump. My motor runs hot so I put a external cooler on it and now my oil pressure is through the roof. 40+ psi at idle with 180ish oil temp. Thats after a 30 min highway test run. What I gather is that i need stiffer springs in the oil control/relief valves to fix the problem and pull the external. am i right or am i a total idiot? I should note that the test run was on a 48* night.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if it were me I would just put synthetic oil in it,10-30.and adjust the weight of the oil as required.if it drops to low go up a bit ,ot if it,s too high go to a 5w20 , but I would not pull the cooler, the 180 temp is good at that outside temp.
I dont have a clue what year my as 21 is but it also has the audi vw logo's.
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kme9418
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:

You can use either piston. But the piston with the groove is the latest model and is really a better choice. Especially if you live in a cold climate.


I have a dual relief case and both pistons are the same. Why do you say that the grooved piston is a better choice? By the way, I know they are both the same because I pulled them out while I have the motor pulled fixing a blown oil cooler seal. Related?
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the oe ones were not groved,I dont know if vw did it on the later stuff or not, the newest oe motors I have had were 1972, but the groved piston go's in the pully end relief and it does help&flow better& faster I think it's longer too so it has more support. and yes it may be related.
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The grooved piston was used on the 1500S, the last of the single relief system.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like there is an error on the last flow diagram on the first page of this information and it makes me question the findings? Oil pressure at the sensor is listed at 105 psi 65 psi and 54 psi at 1000 rpm and 190 deg F oil temp with a 30 mm pump these are the same as the 3000 rpm readings! So in effect we don't know weather or not a 30 mm pump helps the oil pressure at idle.
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beetlemania628
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: oil cooler holes blocked with set screws Reply with quote

What if I block the top with set screws as shown in the picture. Will there need to be additional work on the case to ensure the flow is ok? I thought a oil cooler block off would do the same thing. I am using a full flow to a filter system. This is for racing only.

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