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Dual relief oiling system. How it works.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would get something like this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=968666

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beetlemania628
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That really doesn't answer my question. And besides, I have a block off already and would like to know if the question I asked would work ok.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would not do it that way, keep both gallys flowing oil!!! take a 1/2~5/8~3/4" thick aluminum plate drill to fit the bolt pattern,get the bug pack cooler gasket and scribe a line from each hole to the other and then mill a slot 3/8" widex3/8" deep from one to the other(I use aball mill to do it) then also remove that cut out portion of the gasket..you now have a better flowing system, instead of a restricted system.
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do block off the stock cooler like that you will need to leave the piston in with no spring. If you just left the piston out oil would leak out the relief drilling at the bottom of the bore. The bypass fitting is available - I'm not sure how you would stop Mark's version leaking, but maybe he can enlighten us?

Tapping the case would make the modification non-reversible, of course.
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Juanito84
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All though the item Glen showed above says "block off plate" in the ad, from what I can tell it is actually a bypass. I also agree with Glen that it would be a better choice than a block off plate. Or there's that other alternative of using an actual block off plate and taking the spring out from under the piston. Either way you would be acomplishing the same thing only through different oil passages.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the first page it takes about 60psi to open the oil control valve and less than 25psi to let it close due to the different pressures on the valve head from when it is up against the bevel an when it is not. I was wondering if it makes sence to enlarge the bevel and then use a higher spring pressure to keep oil pressures more constant. For an example:

Original bevel diameter (10.1mm) enlarged to 13.4mm (about 2mm less than diameter of piston) with 9.9psi spring would mean the valve would open at 33.4psi and close at 45psi.

Of course this would leave only 1mm around the edge for the piston to rest on. Maybe you could dremel small areas around the top of the valve chamber leaving 3 parts of the chamber top for the piston to rest on.

Or if there were a way to put a retainer on the spring that limits full extention you could completely bevel out the top and run an 11.8psi spring and the valve would open and close right at 40psi.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't work that way. The valve opens at a higher pressure as the oil pressure is acting on less surface area. You will note pressure is stated as pounds per square inch? So you multiply the psi time the square inches to get the pounds of force working against the spring.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quokka42 wrote:
It doesn't work that way. The valve opens at a higher pressure as the oil pressure is acting on less surface area. You will note pressure is stated as pounds per square inch? So you multiply the psi time the square inches to get the pounds of force working against the spring.


What do you mean? That's exactly what I'm saying and that's exactly what I did. But what I am also saying is that one should be able to reshape the beveled area so that you can get more surface area. I thought of three ways if doing it. Because if you could get it to where you have the same amount of surface area exposed to the oil pressures both with the valve closed and open then you should be able to have a pinpoint pressure that opens and closes the valve instead of two very different pressures to open or close the valve.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just read through this after looking at my case with interest.

How does one measure a spring to work out what psi it gives?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to add that real surface area does not matter, only diameter of plunge.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy198712 wrote:
just read through this after looking at my case with interest.

How does one measure a spring to work out what psi it gives?

Cheers

Andy


A spring doesn't give psi. It gives p. The si is on top of the piston. You can measure a spring with an appropiate sized scale, a ruler or other tool to measure length, and a means of clamping the spring to the scale and keeping it square. If you have spring, say, 5 inches long, it exerts 0 pounds at 5 inches. If you clamp it down on the scale until the scale says 10lbs, and you measure the spring to be 4 inches, the spring exerts 10lbs @ 4in. If you clamp it until the scale reads 20lbs, and the ruler 3 inches, then it exerts 20lbs @ 3inch.

If you take that spring and put it in a cylinder with a piston, and the cross sectional area of both is 1 square inch top and you fill the cylinder with a fluid at 10psi it will push the piston and the spring back 1 inch. If the fluid is at 20psi,it will push back the piston and spring 2 inches.

If the piston and cylinder are 1/2 square inch, then it will take 20psi to push back 1 inch and 40psi to push back 2 inches. If the piston and cylinder are 2 square inches it will take 5 psi to push back 1 inch and 10psi to push back 2 inches.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boolean wrote:
Just want to add that real surface area does not matter, only diameter of plunge.


Exactly. If it were domed or dished it would be the same as a flat top plunger of the same diameter.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting thread.
Does anyboby have information about oil pressure after performing ALL HVX mods?
Opening all those oil passages looks like need the 30mm pump after.... or not?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont think enlarging passages has real effect on volume once they are filled.... What probably has most effect is size of bearing and lifter clearances that controls the volume of flow past bearings or by and through lifters... Getting larger volume of oil to the bearings and such does not always require bigger volume pump...

Its sort of like having a 6 inch (152mm) water pipe full of water, but if you have valve on end of pipe that will only flow 1/4 inch (6.3mm) diameter stream of water you only need to replenish amount that exits valve...

Enlarging passages only means oil gets there with less restriction of flow...

Dale
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...except that the HVX mods entail getting more oil to the rockers, which DOES increase oil flow.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozzo wrote:
Very interesting thread.
Does anyboby have information about oil pressure after performing ALL HVX mods?
Opening all those oil passages looks like need the 30mm pump after.... or not?


Even if you get good pressure with a 26mm pump and HVX mods a bigger 30mm pump will flow more oil through the cooler. Remember that with HVX mods not only are you increasing flow to the heads but you are extracting more heat out of them also.

I'm doing all the HVX mods to a Type 1 engine I'm doing; except I'm going to try a Type 4 cooler instead of an external cooler. To get enough flow through it I'm going to use a 30mm pump and drill the oil pressure control outlet bigger.

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I do think, however, that with a really good oil cooler you might be able to get away with a 26mm pump just fine.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

larger gallys slow down the oil....if the oil is going to fast it may miss the turn to the main or something else and end up in encino.....it can actuly starve a bearing for oil.enlarging most gallys isant practicle,but some can be done. the small block mopar suffered from this above 8000 rpm, the fix was to add an extra gally to feed to the other end also witch would then slow down the oil speed, it's flowing a lot of oil but due to 2 paths it has cut the speed in half so the oil can now feed all the bearings as they need to be fed. the acvw I dont think has this issue, the main is fed from close to the center branching out both ways.,but some cases do have small pasages to the cooler. I would think the cooler bypass spring on those cases would be quite importaint and need to be soft. And no you just cant take out the spring , the bore has a vent, and the piston will let oil spray out the vent.the vent is not the outlet,it is a vacume break type of vent.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Thanks for the replt. I think i have to add more info.
The engine is a 90.5*76 that goes in a bay with a Dk t3 gearbox. So i have long gearing an rpm will stay under 4500rpm always.
I did all hvx mod but did not open up the relief passage as written here.
I do have external 48 plate mesacooler and oil filter.
I have no idea if my idle pressure with a 30mm pump would go low enough to close the cooler by pass. Oil is 15-40w elf mineral. Anybody with similar set up and oil pressure gauge? The vdo oil pressure stuff is accurate enough to monitor this?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing how everyone's engine is going to be different, why not just get a cheap pressure gauge from a hardware store and a couple adapters and stick it in your oil pressure switch hole and find out what your pressure is doing?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE IDLE PRESSURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COOLER RELIEF ( when the engine is up to temp). but your 15-40 might. if your woried go to a 10-30. feal the cooler to see if it is hot, feal to see if warm or hot air is blowing from the cooler outletwhen the engine is warm/hot. mine takes aboyut 4 miles when it's cool out side and about 8 miles when cold out side. my car is heated by the oil cooler,so it's kinda easy to feal when it's warming up the air. when cold I block off the cooler for a few miles so it can get oil temp faster.(My ext cooler is always blocked off when cool out side)
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