Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Dual relief oiling system. How it works.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, miniman is correct.
You need to look at the control valve as a waste gate or overflow valve. It is not really a pressue regulator. VW installed them to make the motor seem to last longer. When they used a 21mm pump in a single relief case there was no extra oil. So as the bearings wore you steadly saw the oil pressure drop slowly over time. They added the Control valve and a larger pump so there was more oil and more pressure. the extra oil from the larger pump just went out the control valve. As the motor wore and the bearings required more oil the control valve would slowly close untill it stopped flowing oil all together. From then on you would notice your oil pressure start to drop but it would drop in 15,000 miles instead of 60,000 miles. But for VW it was a simple and inexpencive change to make the motor seem to last longer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
mailman
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2005
Posts: 1663

mailman is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, guys! This is actually starting to make sense... Laughing

This type of info is exactly what we here on the Samba need more of. This is a great start!

I can see where we could use a similar thread for the cooling system.....

And another one for the starting circuit of the electrical system.....

I see questions posted here on a daily basis by guys that just don't understand how the VW was intended to work in the first place (me included, sometimes).
_________________
'64 Bahama Blue Beetle / steel sunroof
'64 Bahama Blue Beetle Sedan (future ragtop)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
millerje78
Samba Amishman


Joined: October 16, 2005
Posts: 2445
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
millerje78 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice contribution, jimmy! oil system for dummies!!! I love it.
_________________
always seeking a better way
my 73 standard project

do your research, consult with experts, and buy quality parts. you won't be sorry
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7424
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent information on a topic that is misunderstood by most. The data parallels what I have seen at various pressures as well, but I haven't ever done a study on the topic.

Jimmy, if you don't mind me asking why were you doing this research work and why were so many engines tested??
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jake. It was in 1979. I was working for a Engineering company that was doing a project for a company that wanted to mass produce small budget 2 seat helicopters. At first we did 10 motors but the results were inconclusive. The readings were all over the place. The owner of the Engineering company went to a salvage yard in Tustin and bought another 90 motors and so we tested them all. Dont really know why. The project was to turn the Motor so the flywheel side was up and attach a bell housing and use belts to drive the transmission. It worked ok except it was difficult to keep the oil seal at the pulley from leaking. I dont really know what happened to the company that hired us but I think that they still exist. Not positive. it was 29 years ago.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7424
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool.... The Helo looked something like an OH58 if it's what I am thinking of... Thats cool!

I have often wanted to do something similar to this, but change bearing clearances and oil weights to see the differences of the pressures and volumes across the engine... I don't have time for all of it, thats for damn sure!
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 5767

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great post and I love the technical discussion.

If you are using a 30mm pump what modifications do you need to make at the control valve. I noticed on one of your photos it indicated to re-cut the bevel if you resurface the mating surface for the control valve and also increase the size of the hole (is this the hole that runs to the bearings and do you increase the size the whole length of the case?

Thanks for the info!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pupjoint
Samba Member


Joined: May 23, 2007
Posts: 1121

pupjoint is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jake, you mentioned ometime that you also use the 30mm oil pump in your engines...do you do any mods to these engines? did you face the same prob as jimmy?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing wrong with using a 30mm oil pump in a dual relief motor as long as you are using a remote cooler and the motor is full flowed. The problem occures with the relief valve that sends oil to the oil cooler on the motor. When the oil pressure is too high the relief valve thinks that the oil is still cool and continues to bypass the stock cooler. This is cause of a lot of overheating new motors. I have the drawings that explain this but I dont have time to scan them right now. I will do it on the weekend.

A 30mm oil pump in a single relief case is a really bad Idea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one that you want to increase is the cross drill hole. You will need to remove the plug behind the flywheel and drill straight thru the valve into the case. So effectivly you are drilling 2 holes. On the outside of the case you will need to tap for a plug too and install a tapered pipe plug.
Ill make it more clear in the drawing.

I added a photo of the location to drill.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


74 Thing wrote:
This is a great post and I love the technical discussion.

If you are using a 30mm pump what modifications do you need to make at the control valve. I noticed on one of your photos it indicated to re-cut the bevel if you resurface the mating surface for the control valve and also increase the size of the hole (is this the hole that runs to the bearings and do you increase the size the whole length of the case?

Thanks for the info!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Lionhart94010
Samba Member


Joined: January 04, 2005
Posts: 1394
Location: SF Bay Aria / Silicon & Central Valley
Lionhart94010 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111,

Wow Extremely helpful, I was searching for the information your tests show, I have a Berg full flow pressure relief oil pump cover plate that limits max oil pressure to 95psi, but was looking for clear information on what effect the 30mm pump w/95psi max would have on the oil control & relief valves.

If I understand your data correctly it would seem that the 30mm pump has a result of prolonging the time it takes before the oil reaches its optimal operating temperature, by routing oil through the oil cooler before it reaches 180F and once the oil has reached 180+ the oil control valve does not shut as it should and allows some of the hot oil to bypass the oil cooler and go strait to the bearings, causing an accelerated upward spiral in oil temp? And that the best way of relieving the problem is by increasing the size of the oil control(flywheel side) relief channel from 5mm to 7 or 8mm and using a 4-7psi relief valve spring (on new engines) to relive the excess flow induced over pressure cased by the relief channel bottleneck.

Please let me know if I have got it wright :0) I have a T1 2007cc Motor in the works, that has a 30mm pump, I is full flowed and has the Berg 95lbmax oil pump cover and will also have an external oil filter and external oil cooler with thermostat that will run in conjunction with a stock oil cooler setup. I do not want the external cooler kicking in before the stock system has been overwhelmed due to climbing a steep graded or due to high external temp...

I look forward to seeing your additional information, your posting will probably save many of us a lot of grief!

Thanks again :0)

Andre
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
redhot
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2005
Posts: 447

redhot is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
There is nothing wrong with using a 30mm oil pump in a dual relief motor as long as you are using a remote cooler and the motor is full flowed. The problem occures with the relief valve that sends oil to the oil cooler on the motor. When the oil pressure is too high the relief valve thinks that the oil is still cool and continues to bypass the stock cooler. This is cause of a lot of overheating new motors. I have the drawings that explain this but I dont have time to scan them right now. I will do it on the weekend.

A 30mm oil pump in a single relief case is a really bad Idea.



Hi,

Do you have any advice regarding Mexico filter pumps. As far as I can tell they are 30mm, but did they modify the overflow-bore? Or is the pump so much of a pressure height loss already that it is superficial?


ps: Great info, and wonderful to see and read well documented facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They did not exist when these tests were done. But You got to be careful about the pump that comes with the filter adapter. You need the Mexican pump for the filter to work. Many sets that I have seen dont come with the mexician pump. They come with a standard 30mm pump. This pump does not have the passage for the return from the filter and oil will just fill up the filter and the oil never leaves it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
redhot
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2005
Posts: 447

redhot is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven`t got the pump where I live now, but will check it out.

Is this correct?

Inlet on right side of gear, outlet to filter on left sides of gears, and outlet from filter into the pump body in the solid to the left of the gears?

Do you have a illustration of some sort?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
hd74cid
Samba Member


Joined: December 21, 2005
Posts: 181
Location: Gonzales, Louisiana
hd74cid is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So for us technically challenged people sitting in the back of the class, would a softer spring in the oil relief valve allow more oil to enter the cooler? I've built a really nice, stone stock dual port but the temps keep rising. Cools down quick in stop and go traffic, even in the high 90's both temp and humidity.

I'm now thinking about going spring shopping at the hardware store. Am I on the right track?

BTW - YOU Samba gawds are who got me back into vdubs and I thank you every day when I crank up "Timex"
_________________
My other bug is a 2 wheeled vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A softer spring will bypass the cooler and less oil will go to the cooler. You need a stiffer spring. Many of the springs we tested were off a lot mainly weaker. You might want to just try a new stock spring. But first you should put a oil pressure gage on and see what pressures you have.

Redhot. i will post a photo of the pump later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a standard pump.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the pump that works with the filter plates or the In/Out Plates

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you notice the hole on the pump, that is for the return to the case thru the pump.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
redhot
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2005
Posts: 447

redhot is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thak you again for taking the time to answer these questions.
It was as I thought, and I`ll make sure to check.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tvättbjörn
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 1126
Location: SoCal
Tvättbjörn is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen engine cases where somebody installed a bushing (pressed in) in combination with a steel ball and spring (on the pulley side). Not like the regular piston and spring. I like the idea , because the ball will never bind compared to the piston design.

any thoughts on that??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard of them but never seen one. The only one that I know of that is recent is this one in this post.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=290867

But the reciept says it is for a type 4 and it does not seem to have a seat.

I cant see how a press in seat will work because there is not much room between the valve seat and the hole for the oil gallery. The seat whoud need to be very thin and machining would need to be done to the valve seat to provide more room.

Also a ball has more surface area available to the pressure of the oil so it would close at a much lower pressure...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 2 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB