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Dual relief oiling system. How it works.
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Tvättbjörn
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PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
I have heard of them but never seen one. The only one that I know of that is recent is this one in this post.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=290867

But the reciept says it is for a type 4 and it does not seem to have a seat.

I cant see how a press in seat will work because there is not much room between the valve seat and the hole for the oil gallery. The seat whoud need to be very thin and machining would need to be done to the valve seat to provide more room.

Also a ball has more surface area available to the pressure of the oil so it would close at a much lower pressure...


I´ve seen only T1 with the ball design. It is a very thin seat. Like a thick wall tube with a nice maschined end and a ball on top of it. Looks very good and has zero leakage while closed.

Just looked at the other topic. Yes, that is the one I´m talking about.
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HBRag
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Dual relief oiling system. How it works. Reply with quote

Very interesting reading. I've been doing some checking on a new Brazilian factory case, and found that the machining appears to be different than what was observed during this study in 1979, specifically the Oil Control Valve.

Jimmy111 wrote:
Here is a section of the oil control valve Notice the opening and closing pressures of the piston.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the new cases the control valve is machined flat, without a bevel. However, the 'Oil Control passage into main oil gallery' is drilled to 10mm. In addition, the 'Oil relief passage into case' is 6.75mm in diameter, rather that the 5mm noted here.

Could it be, that aside from checking spring pressure, the new cases should not need any modifications to the Control Valve?
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have seen that 10mm hole in the cases that have the VW/audi mark on them. I think those were for the Mexican Bugs that used the 30mm oil pump. I assumesd that they did that to relieve the excess oil from the 30mm pump.
It is not easy to enlarge the passage to 10mm on the older cases because the hole was not drilled into the center of the main oil gallery but off to the side. It you tried to drill a much larger hole you would drill into the oil gallery where the oil feeds from the rear cam and crank bearings intersect and have a difficult time putting a cap on.
Check and see what the spring pressure is for the mexican cases and go with that. You shouldnt have any problem running a 30mm pump.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Maxipump 3 Reply with quote

Ok I tried the Maxipump 3 from CB for 2 months to see how it worked.
It is a 26mm Aluminum Shadeck pump Made for CB by Shadeck.

I worked pretty good at low speeds. I had about 2 PSI more than the stock 26mm shadeck that I had in there. But at 3500 RPM I had 4 PSI lower oil pressure than with the standard 26mm Shadeck. I think it has something to do with the 3 extra angles the oil has to flow thru to get back to the case.

But generally it seems to be an easy way to add external cooling an/or a filter without full flowing your case. The 4 PSI is not so much and is acceptable for most normal use.


There was a question about the gasket and here it is
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is the front of the pump with the hose adapters:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And this is the Rear of the adapter:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It can only be used with the Maxipump and not the stock type of pumps.
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Alexander_Monday
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111,

Your drawings have explained more about the type 1 cooling system than
words ever could. Thank you for this, and I have a question for you.
I am adding an Eaton supercharger to a type 1. With the extra load on the
#4 bearing, I was wondering if I should modify the restrictor to increase the
flow to #4 bearing? I currently have the case apart, so now would be the
time to do it if it would be needed.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The restrictor is fine. But I would look at opening up the flow at the bearing itself. The bearing has a tiny little hole in it.

Eaton super charger? Post some pics please. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Maxipump 3 Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
Ok I tried the Maxipump 3 from CB for 2 months to see how it worked.
It is a 26mm Aluminum Shadeck pump Made for CB by Shadeck.

I worked pretty good at low speeds. I had about 2 PSI more than the stock 26mm shadeck that I had in there. But at 3500 RPM I had 4 PSI lower oil pressure than with the standard 26mm Shadeck. I think it has something to do with the 3 extra angles the oil has to flow thru to get back to the case.

But generally it seems to be an easy way to add external cooling an/or a filter without full flowing your case. The 4 PSI is not so much and is acceptable for most normal use.


There was a question about the gasket and here it is
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is the front of the pump with the hose adapters:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And this is the Rear of the adapter:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It can only be used with the Maxipump and not the stock type of pumps.

Jimmy,
do you know If I could use that type of oil pump and be safe on my single relief case? I have the pump cover like in your pic with the in and out on it! I just wanted to have the filter set up without tapping my case! Thanks
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Busamov
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: dual relief oiling, and how it works Reply with quote

...also where do I find one of those maxipumps at? would it be alright to use on my single relief 1500 type3? It would be nice to have the full flow but do not want to tap the case!
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its fine. It is called MAXIPump 3 from CB performance. It is about $40 dollars or so. It bolted right on my bug. I have heard of complications with some busses . Check and see how much room you have between your pump cover and fan. Also remember that you do need to pull all of it apart to install a oil pump.. Crying or Very sad
If you do it post some photos here for others.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a photo of the inside of the oil side of the case I took ar RIMCO.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Valve cover oil spray Reply with quote

Here is a video from Mufler Mike showing the oil spray inside of the valve cover.

http://media.putfile.com/5500rpm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A softer spring will bypass the cooler and less oil will go to the cooler. You need a stiffer spring. Many of the springs we tested were off a lot mainly weaker. You might want to just try a new stock spring. But first you should put a oil pressure gage on and see what pressures you have.


What about using an oil pressure adjuster to compensate for the new weaker springs?
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5389
There aren't a whole lot of OG stock springs left around here anymore. And where would I find a spring that was actually 7lbs or test one to make sure?
our new motor has 25psi on the gauge at 3000rpm when the oil is (180-200F) so it is not a lot of pressure anyways. It lights the oil light when the idle drops below 1000rpm
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Lawrence_0485
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
This is a standard pump.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the pump that works with the filter plates or the In/Out Plates

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you notice the hole on the pump, that is for the return to the case thru the pump.



I think i read it on here that the in/out pumps cant really move enough oil in and out to work very well. How would an in/out pump compare to real full flow. Also would it be better to use an in/out pump or to get an out only pump cover run it through your filter, thermastat, 16 pass oilcooler and back in the stock rear oil cooler port. I ask only because a retard built the engine in my car and it has crappy oil pressure so i had to put a 30mm pump in and it runs warm (200-225) now. I can't park the car and rebuild right now because it's my Daily driver.
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
Quote:
A softer spring will bypass the cooler and less oil will go to the cooler. You need a stiffer spring. Many of the springs we tested were off a lot mainly weaker. You might want to just try a new stock spring. But first you should put a oil pressure gage on and see what pressures you have.


What about using an oil pressure adjuster to compensate for the new weaker springs?
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5389
There aren't a whole lot of OG stock springs left around here anymore. And where would I find a spring that was actually 7lbs or test one to make sure?
our new motor has 25psi on the gauge at 3000rpm when the oil is (180-200F) so it is not a lot of pressure anyways. It lights the oil light when the idle drops below 1000rpm


I have one of those with the intention of installing it in a low oil pressure motor but all my motors have good oil pressure. It should work but it should also be concidered a bandaid. Give it a try and let us know how it works.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lawrence_0485 wrote:
Jimmy111 wrote:
This is a standard pump.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the pump that works with the filter plates or the In/Out Plates

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you notice the hole on the pump, that is for the return to the case thru the pump.



I think i read it on here that the in/out pumps cant really move enough oil in and out to work very well. How would an in/out pump compare to real full flow. Also would it be better to use an in/out pump or to get an out only pump cover run it through your filter, thermastat, 16 pass oilcooler and back in the stock rear oil cooler port. I ask only because a retard built the engine in my car and it has crappy oil pressure so i had to put a 30mm pump in and it runs warm (200-225) now. I can't park the car and rebuild right now because it's my Daily driver.



The maxipump 3 worked well. It probably will not have the volumn or pressure for a racer but for a street car it seems great. I had about a 4 psi drop in pressure at freeway speed but that is not so bad.

You might want to check your pressure control valve spring and all your tin too before you replace he pump. When you replaced the pump before, was it easy to remove and replace? Someimes people put sealant on it and he case does not grip it tight enough and there is a leak. Also check your pump cover. It could be ground down and leaking internally.
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Lawrence_0485
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it was a little bit of a fight, But thats a veedub for ya huh Smile. I used a puller to get the stock one out and after backing the studs out a few turns, i put the new one in with a scrap piece of wood and a mallet. After it was all buttoned up i chainged the oil. When cold/idle pressure is high at around 45ish and when oil is warm(220)/idle its about 15lbs. I wanna put thinner oil in it, but i'm afraid the pressure when hot will just fall out. Right now it has castrol 20/50 in it, i know, i know. Shocked
The pump cover was fine when i put the pump in, that was prob. 8-9000 miles ago.
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gimmesomeshelter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello-

If I understand the system correctly, when VW designed the oil system, they had three situations in mind.

low oil pressure = hot oil --> route to cooler --> route to bearings
mid oil pressure = med oil --> route to bearings
high oil pressure = cold oil --> route to bearings/sump

When you install a larger than normal pump, three things happen. First, you're more likely to rupture seals, oil coolers, etc. Second, you’re more likely to send excessively hot oil to the bearings. Lastly, you'll end up sending oil directly to the sump that should be used for lubrication.

Given this situation, is there a way to accurately recalibrate your oil relief valve when you use a larger that stock oil pump (I have a 36hp engine and the stock pumps aren't available.)

Thanks,

Paul
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gimmesomeshelter wrote:
Hello-

If I understand the system correctly, when VW designed the oil system, they had three situations in mind.

low oil pressure = hot oil --> route to cooler --> route to bearings
mid oil pressure = med oil --> route to bearings
high oil pressure = cold oil --> route to bearings/sump

When you install a larger than normal pump, three things happen. First, you're more likely to rupture seals, oil coolers, etc. Second, you’re more likely to send excessively hot oil to the bearings. Lastly, you'll end up sending oil directly to the sump that should be used for lubrication.

Given this situation, is there a way to accurately recalibrate your oil relief valve when you use a larger that stock oil pump (I have a 36hp engine and the stock pumps aren't available.)

Thanks,

Paul


Im sorry but I really dont know anything about 36HP motors. But the oil systems are pretty much the same and I assume that it is similar to a single relief case. The problem is that you have too much pressure and that is depressing the relief valve an bypassing the cooler. But if you increase spring pressure,you increase the presure to the oil cooler and can rupture the oil cooler. You might try to install a small pressure relief valve with a 40 PSI spring in it to help relieve the pressure. It shouldent be too hard to do or find. Ive seen 3/8" adjustable ones used on race motors.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just purchased a new Brazil AS41 case with the Audi logo on it. I plan on using a Berg 26mm oil pump. I'll drill and tap the case for full flow set up and remote oil fliter.

I checked the oil control valve bore and the oil relief valve bore. At the bottom of both, the valve seat is completely flat.

I also purchased a German hardware kit that includes the oil valve springs (one long, one short) and two pistons. Both of the pistons are the same length and diameter. Neither piston has a grove around it.

Do the same specs apply for the spring pressure with a Brazil case - 7.0 to 8.5 lbs? And does this spec apply to both springs - control & relief?

Is this set up going to work or will the oil pressurebe too high / too low?
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to take care with the cases with the Audi label on them. They were made as replacement cases for the 1300 brazilian motors and when they were machined they were machined as single relief cases without the high pressure relief hole in the relief valve. The control valve body was there but it was not machined even for the plug. They came with instructions of how to machine them for different applications. Mostly they never got sold because in Latin America the people just did not have the money to pay $250 for a new case so they just repaired the old cases as well as they could. Most of the dealers have had these on the shelf for a long time and in the last 10 years or so someone as been buying them up for cheap, doing limited machining and reselling them to the US market.
So dont think that the machining is correct.

You can use either piston. But the piston with the groove is the latest model and is really a better choice. Especially if you live in a cold climate.
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