Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Dual relief oiling system. How it works.
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
redhot
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2005
Posts: 447

redhot is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the Mexico oil pump, two issues comes to mind.

1) The filter, probably a large restriction and therefore the testing done without filter won`t give the correct data, and extra oil passage length and direction changes should represent a pressure drop themselves.

How large pressure drop is the key issure. If the outlet pressure of the pump is no higher or just slightly higher than the 26mm standard pump no modifications to the case should be necessary.

ps: does the OEM mexico pump have a integral bypass, and how does it operate?

2) In all engines, with all oilpumps, high RPM would increase the pressure, and thereby bypassing the oilcooler IF the control valve doesn`t flow enough oil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

How would the test/s fair today using todays superior oils instead of yester years inferior oils?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todays oils are not necessarly more superior than yesterdays oils.
multigrade oils are prepared the same way today as they were 30 years ago so the tests would probably be the same. In my opinion 20-50 is not a good choice for todays VW motors.

Your statement on the other post did not make much sense to me either.
Perhaps you should take a good look at it and rewrite it in a maner that everyone can understand it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Udidwht wrote:

"Not entirely correct. It bypasses the oil cooler until the relief valve returns. Remember, the relief valve relieves pressure. Hence the word relief. Oil will always be at the bearing surface/s. The pressure will be relieved by the relief valve should it come into play."


Marv [UK] wrote:

"Absolutely. It is not an "on / off" switch. It is there to prevent damage to the cooler from too much pressure, not to prevent oil from getting anywhere. The oil still passes through to the lifters and bearings.

At higher temperatures, the oil thins out and reduces in pressure and then passes through the cooler.

the oil control valve performs a similar function in returning excess oil to the case. Look at the oil sticky for the diagrams. The oil control valve is in operation quite a lot more than people think.

The oil galleys can only cope with so much oil as they are so narrow. chucking huge flows of oil through bearings means that it's going to find the easy way out a lot faster IMHO. Super slippy thin oil [tm] won't necessarily coat things as it should. The bearings are designed to "float" the crank on a thin layer of oil. This ability to coat under pressure is called the film strength or lubricity (apparently)

I'm no oil expert. VW designed the original engine with remarkably close tolerances given the time. The rod bearings etc were designed with an SAE 30 oil in mind. I don't believe that the tolerances have been tightened up since the 70's.

At 210*F, it has a viscosity of index of 30 and a film strength to deal with the forces in a STOCK engine. Over the years they have changed things about with increasing technology of lubrication and have recommended 15W40 amongst others. Either way the statement below applies

If you're putting more force and stress through your bearings, it doesn't matter what the flow is if the film strength won't stop your bearings and journals grinding.

Performance engine requires an oil with a greater film strength than SAE30. It's viscosity depends entirely on your general atmospheric conditions.

This is an extract from an AMSOIL website, OK so some if it is advertising so automatically some people are goint to instantly disregard it but it's a pretty good rule of thumb guide."




Odd that Marv understands...(His first sentence in his post). There are THOSE who would also disagree that todays oils are the same. Back to topic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What marv wrote was correct. What you wrote was not. That was Buginva's gripe.

But the relief valve IS a on off switch. It does not vary the oil thru the cooler. If the valve is open at all, little to no oil will flow thru the cooler.

ALL high performance factory motors call for either 0W30 or 5W30 today. The engines are not tighter than a VW motor. When you build a motor for proformance you will increase the oilflow thru the bearings by decreasing the journal diameter of the crank. Not increasing it.

When VW's were designed, bearing material was a Babbitt which is a mix of 80% lead 15% antimony and 5% tin. In the late 1970's they went to a babbitt of 89% tin 7% antimony and 4% copper to keep the Cat converters from fouling. The Lead based babbitt worked very well with straight 30W oil. It did not work well with the tin based babbitt so VW experimented with other oils. 74 and later VW motors were known for spinning bearings.
If you buy a Crank bearing for your VW today it is made from Aluminum with a very thin film of Tin Based babbit on it. The aluminum bearings require a light oil with high flow. They are not the bearings that VW supplied or even recomend. 5w30 is what is recomended by almost every major gasoline engine manufactruer. Cars these days go 200-300,000 miles with little bearing wear using aluminum bearings and 5W-30 oil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
bugninva
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
bugninva is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
What marv wrote was correct. What you wrote was not. That was Buginva's gripe.



Wink
_________________
[email protected] wrote:
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone?


GEX has. Just sayin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey


Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9516
Location: Southern Maryland
miniman82 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'd think that would be a simple thing to understand....
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


Welcome to the Samba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

Our two statements are the same aside from not being word for word. Not hard at all, a no brainer. He even agrees with, "Absolutely..."

You'll always have oil to the bearings. Nothing is shut off. What amount will depend on temperature, pressure, oil viscosity...

Then you say Marv is correct but then turn right around and say, "But the relief valve IS a on off switch." d'oh!...You'd think that would be a simple thing to understand. Apparently not since Marv said,"It is NOT an on/off switch." Think


The engine tolerances of 'todays' vehicles are not of the same tolerances of ACVW's. High performance motors aside. The vast majority on this forum probably fall within the 'Stock-mild' range. ACVW's expand/contract far more due to the operating temperatures they operate at. Vehicles of today don't see the expansion rates or temps ACVW's see.

For most of 'Todays' vehicles the following does hold true as you stated:

"5w30 is what is recommended by almost every major gasoline engine manufacturer. Cars these days go 200-300,000 miles with little bearing wear using aluminum bearings and 5W-30 oil."

This holds true for my Highlander but it also isn't Air-cooled.

The catch is for 'Todays' vehicles.


Bottom line is the builder of the motor will know what's best. There is no one size fits all as some suggest.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey


Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9516
Location: Southern Maryland
miniman82 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, there isn't a one size fits all but if there were, it sure as h-e-double-hockey-sticks wouldn't be 20W-50! All babble aside, one thing always remains true- oil has to flow to lubricate. 5W-30 flows better than 20W-50 at all temperatures, which is why I run it. I'd rather know a failure I have was caused by my own doing, not ignorance of oil viscosities...
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


Welcome to the Samba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
No, there isn't a one size fits all but if there were, it sure as h-e-double-hockey-sticks wouldn't be 20W-50! All babble aside, one thing always remains true- oil has to flow to lubricate. 5W-30 flows better than 20W-50 at all temperatures, which is why I run it. I'd rather know a failure I have was caused by my own doing, not ignorance of oil viscosities...


That is until it's so damn HOT outside that the 30W will thin so much that one could piss thicker than 30W. No thanks, I'll stick with what works best based on my build/average ambient temps throughout the year. Nothing wrong with 5W-30...weather permitted that is. Not many ACVW gurus recommend running 5W-30 these days. Jake doesn't recommend them for his motors either, weather permitted.


I stand corrected on the weather permitted (Jake).

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=2184

Here is some very good informative oil info as well using several different grades of oil:

http://www.lnengineering.com/motoroiltestingwhitepaper.pdf

More here:

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=1751

and here:

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=1697

Notice in the last two he doesn't recommend 30W...too thin Crying or Very sad

More from LN Topic: Oil

"While lower viscosities improve fuel economy greatly, they also reduce the hydrodynamic film strength and high temperature high shear viscosity of the motor oil, factors both of which are key to protecting high performance engines, especially aircooled ones."

"We are aware of the group of people who believe thinner oils are better for their engines. This is only the case if the engine is of a design requiring thinner oils or can support use of these thinner oils. Where choosing the thinnest oil to maintain the required pressure might seem logical, you have to also consider that you have a thinner oil film and lower HTHS viscosity for that thinner viscosity oil, which provides less protection in areas where metal to metal contact occurs where pressure itself only insures bearing protection, which has not been a problem we've ever experienced using higher viscosity oils like 15w40 and 20w50 viscosities."

Link to both: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html


Last edited by udidwht on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:27 pm; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey


Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9516
Location: Southern Maryland
miniman82 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your engine gets hot enough to need more than 30 weight oil you need a better oil cooling system, not heavier oil. Wink
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


Welcome to the Samba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
If your engine gets hot enough to need more than 30 weight oil you need a better oil cooling system, not heavier oil. Wink


No overheating issues here. It sure wouldn't help to have a 30W in the motor if you did have an overheat issue. Pray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugninva
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
bugninva is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
miniman82 wrote:
If your engine gets hot enough to need more than 30 weight oil you need a better oil cooling system, not heavier oil. Wink


No overheating issues here. It sure wouldn't help to have a 30W in the motor if you did have an overheat issue. Pray


if someone has overheating issues, having a thicker oil isn't really going to help... a thin oil will cook in the heads just as a thick one will... oil viscosity shouldn't be chosen to cover up overheating issues...


udidwht wrote:
That is until it's so damn HOT outside that the 30W will thin so much that one could piss thicker than 30W

I have the full cooling system installed on my cars... this allows my engine to run the same operating temperature at 20F as it does at 100... the oil takes a little longer to warm up in the winter...



udidwht wrote:
"5w30 is what is recommended by almost every major gasoline engine manufacturer. Cars these days go 200-300,000 miles with little bearing wear using aluminum bearings and 5W-30 oil."

This holds true for my Highlander but it also isn't Air-cooled.

The catch is for 'Todays' vehicles.


the operating tollerances for "today's" cars and the vw's operating tollerances are very similar... my modern vehicle has a thermostat that keeps the operating temperature at 210F, so it's very likely that the oil in this engine is running hotter than the oil in my vw.... so "today's" requirements are not discounted as quickly as you'd like them to be...
_________________
[email protected] wrote:
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone?


GEX has. Just sayin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey


Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9516
Location: Southern Maryland
miniman82 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many of today's cars come equipped from the factory with oil coolers? Wink
_________________
Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

Glenn wrote:
satterley_sr wrote:

I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy.


Welcome to the Samba.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugninva
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
bugninva is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miniman82 wrote:
How many of today's cars come equipped from the factory with oil coolers? Wink


ironically, my wife's 07 mazda is, as well as my daily driver cargo van... but apples to oranges, really... the operating temperature of the oil is the main thing, regardless of how it's regulated...
_________________
[email protected] wrote:
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone?


GEX has. Just sayin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jimmy111
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
Jimmy111 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people are under the impression that ACVW's have hotter oil temps than water cooled motors. But this is not the case. 200-220 is the norm for a ACVW. However most Water cooled cars see normal oil temps in the 300F range. This temp would turn your Mag case into a piece of jello.

Udidwht. Now you are saying 30w would be good. That is fine. Its the 20w50 that you need to stay away from.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
bugninva
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
bugninva is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
Most people are under the impression that ACVW's have hotter oil temps than water cooled motors. But this is not the case. 200-220 is the norm for a ACVW. However most Water cooled cars see normal oil temps in the 300F range.


Thanks, Jimmy... that is what I was getting at, but just didn't spell it out in my post...
_________________
[email protected] wrote:
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone?


GEX has. Just sayin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy111 wrote:
Most people are under the impression that ACVW's have hotter oil temps than water cooled motors. But this is not the case. 200-220 is the norm for a ACVW. However most Water cooled cars see normal oil temps in the 300F range. This temp would turn your Mag case into a piece of jello.

Udidwht. Now you are saying 30w would be good. That is fine. Its the 20w50 that you need to stay away from.



Never said ?-30W would be good. Can think of only one time it may be. If it's bone chilling cold out. Take a quart of 30W and either 15/40 or 20/50 on a HOT day 100+ and see how thin that 30W is. Know compound that knowing the oil temp may reach 200+. You'll see that 30W lose it's film strength and lower HTHS.


I know for fact my Toyota doesn't even come close to 300 degrees oil temps. I wouldn't recommend a 5W-30, 10-30 unless it was very COLD out. 20w/50 covers a wide enough spectrum for most. Even 15W-40 would be good. Remember it's a trade off as said before and I quote," Where choosing the thinnest oil to maintain the required pressure might seem logical, you have to also consider that you have a thinner oil film and lower HTHS viscosity for that thinner viscosity oil, which provides less protection in areas where metal to metal contact occurs where pressure itself only insures bearing protection, which has not been a problem we've ever experienced using higher viscosity oils like 15w40 and 20w50 viscosities."


Last edited by udidwht on Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugninva
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
bugninva is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
[
Remember the oil cooler is cooling the oil. If the oil temp is 200-220 upon exiting the cooler it's likely hotter when entering.


all common areas for measuring oil temperature on our vw's is before the cooler... the 200-220F would be before it is sent through the cooler...
_________________
[email protected] wrote:
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone?


GEX has. Just sayin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
udidwht
Samba Member


Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3646
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
udidwht is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject: . Reply with quote

Got a bit ahead of myself there. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 4 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB