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Anyone ever run Royal purple engine oil?
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Mr. Electric Wizard
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Oh, and the Royal Purple products that this thread was supposed to be about? Their products generally meet the required specifications, and are of very high quality. If you don't mind the price, or in some instances having to mail-order your motor oil (Pep Boys carries it in my market), you could hardly do any better.


Does this still hold water?
I run Royal purple 10-30 in my Nissan, and I'm thinking about using 20-50 in my Vanagon.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read Charles' piece on the subject; it's good, recommended reading for sure. But this is a complicated subject, and the ground rules keep changing underneath us as oil formulations, additives and regulations are constantly being tinkered with. We need to keep ourselves informed.

Aside from the prospects of Information Overload and It's Too Much Work, it's not at all a bad thing to have the information available so that people can make their own informed choices about what to put in their engines. I'm not the type of person to take something as gospel just because there's a book, article or web page about the subject. And I'm sure I'm not the only one...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: ZDDP Calculator Reply with quote

The more I read about ZDDP the more I understand that there are a complexity is issues related to it's use. Too little: engine damage, too much: cat damage, etc. I have decided that based on my reading I will supplement my oil to bring it up to a recommended ZDDP level but not higher. One of the problems is that adding a full bottle of ZDDPlus to an oil change will increase the levels way too high. For example one bottle of ZDDPlus to an oil change of Castrol GTX 20w50 will increase the ZDDP level to 0.27. Way higher than the levels of around 0.13 as recommended in earlier posts. A level of 0.27 will undoubtedly affect premature cat damage and modify the TBN more than necessary. Calculating the level changes by adding an additive to an oil is a bit fussy, so I have written an EXCEL spreadsheet calculator to make the calculation easier. You can try it by downloading it here if you want:

http://www.westfalia.gomez-perales.com/Documents/ZDDP.xls

I made this for my own use but figure that if anyone else wants to try it, please be my guest. (although I assume no responsibility for it's use)

My goal is to achieve an ZDDP level of 0.13, which, based on my calculations can be acheved by adding about 1/4 of a bottle of ZDDPlus to an oil change of Castrol GTX 20w50. The good news is that this makes a product like ZDDPlus very economical as one bottle will serve four oil changes. The bad news is that it is hygroscopic and once the bottle has been opened it shouldn't be stored for any length of time. This suggests two options. 1) re-bottle it into smaller, one fl.oz. bottles and keep them sealed up tight, or 2) share with your friends. Get together with a few buddies to all change your oil and share a bottle to get to the correct levels. (Oh yeh, and split the ZDDPlus too Smile ) Anyway, it becomes a very economical solution either way.

If I have completely missed the mark with this calculator, please let me know and I will remove it.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and the Royal Purple products that this thread was supposed to be about? Their products generally meet the required specifications, and are of very high quality. If you don't mind the price, or in some instances having to mail-order your motor oil (Pep Boys carries it in my market), you could hardly do any better.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, I can't stress sufficiently the need for people contemplating the use of oil additives to gain some education first regarding this complex issue. As a layperson, you can't do much better than to review Navarro's work to clarify the topic. Start here:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html#Z15

but please go on to read the entire article. By reading this far in this thread, you've already spent as much time as that would take.

I'll provide a little glossary for those who may get turned off by the plethora of acronyms in just that one FAQ answer:

ZDDP- we covered this.

GM EOS-GM's Engine Oil Supplement, which has been around forever, and gets taken off, relabelled, and put back on the market as often as I take out the compost.

TBN- Total Base Number. Base as in "basic", as vs. acidic. This is the number you really should be attending to. It is broadly a measure of the acid-buffering capability of the lubricant. It also represents, among other things, the level of potential detergency in the product. Oil tends to turn acidic as combustion byproducts, primarily carbon in gasoline motors but also sulfur in diesels, both of which are strongly acid-forming, dissolve in the oil. If the oil swings into acidic territory the wear surfaces will be chemically etched; not good. But if it is too actively detergent, the cleaning effects will also strip oil from wear surfaces where it should cling by viscosity; also very bad. TBN is a combined figure and essentially measures the ability of the product to deploy detergent effects in usable proportions without overwhelming and stripping the oil film, while neutralising acids as they accumulate in solution. Complicated enough for you? What do you think happens if you upset this delicate balance?

If you want to boil down TBN, though, you could look at it as an expression of how long the oil will be serviceable inside the motor. For racers, this matters very very little. For drivers who have bought into and adhere to the foolish and wasteful industry-promoted 3000mile oil change, it matters only a little. For fleet operators and drivers who take a more responsible approach to their lubrication schedules, it is paramount. Fleet operators do Used Oil Analyses regularly with samples from their vehicles, and although they are looking at many things as indicators of engine wear, most schedule oil changes when TBN reaches half of the levels they saw in the product's Virgin Oil Analysis.

TAN-Total Acid Number. The opposite of TBN. As TBN falls, TAN is going to go up.

I'm not presenting this as an advocate for any additive over another. If I were to advocate anything, it would be to reiterate Charles' assertion that you really should find a motor oil product that provides the anti-wear protection and long oil drain intervals we are looking for for this type of motor, at an affordable cost and with sufficient availability, and stick with it. Such products are available still, although the API's SM/CJ4 ratings change has narrowed the field considerably.

To begin that search, throw out any attachments you might have to using synth stocks over organic or vice versa. There is a reason that that is an unending argument that polarizes people, and the reason is that neither is definitively better than the other. When you see people become overtly passionate in their advocacy, whether it's oil, politics, or religion, that is generally a reliable sign that they haven't sufficient evidence to prove their point. So if your mind is made up that one is better than the other, that limits your choices. Get your mind un-made-up and your choices broaden. Then start looking at the things that actually matter much much more in your selection of oil for this type of motor: adequate but not extreme ZDDP levels, not less than 1100ppm but not more than 1600, and a high TBN.

If for some reason you're still convinced you need to boost your oil's anti-wear protection, then try to understand what you are doing.

I'll try to simplify the ZDDP vs. TBN relationship, if it will make that any easier. High levels of ZDDP deplete the TBN. So if you look at an additive and it has high ZDDP levels, you should also look at its detergency levels before you make a choice. If it doesn't add detergents at the same time, the boosted ZDDP in the additive will bring the all-important TBN down. This is OK for racing motors with very short oil drain intervals. It is not OK for road motors with long ODI's.

I'm not going to look at Product Data and MSDS sheets to make that analysis for anyone, so please don't ask my opinion, because my opinion is that you should study the choices, select a good oil product that has sufficient protections built in, and stick with it. It's also my opinion that you should do the environment, your motor and your pocketbook a favor and go to a 5000-7000 ODI, with a mid-period filter change and top-off for those with extra concern. So don't ask my opinion if you don't find those ideas appealing, because those are my opnions, and they travel as a pair.

For those who want to use one of the newer API-rated oil products, due to price and availability, and wish to boost its protection by the use of additives, I say it is doable, but here's my advice: when your favorite mechanic, best friend, or someone on this board says "I use this and haven't had any issues", ask them if they've ran 100k miles with that program and then done a teardown and inspection of their valvetrain and other engine internals. In the unlikely event that they have, given that the SM rating is less than 2 years old, and things held up well, their word is gold. If they haven't, run like hell. Then do the research and come to your own decisions.
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tristessa
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found the BG MOA MSDS online, but it's at a registration site and had to play some funky tricks to get it downloaded. Need someplace to host it, it's a PDF file....
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manufacturers must, by law, provide MSDSs on request. Some will post them for easy access, but the have to provide them if you ask.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSDS is the Material Safety Data Sheet. They're available, but sometimes it takes a bit of calling & waiting to get them. Some manufacturers have them
available online, like the STP 4-Cylinder Oil Treatment MSDS at http://www.thecloroxcompany.com/products/msds/armorallstp/stp4cylinderoiltreatment.pdf

Couldn't find one for the BG MOA at their website, might have to call 'em up to get it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:53 pm    Post subject: Found It! Reply with quote

Checker/Kragen/You're Nuts to Buy Parts Here had the STP Red 4-Cylinder Oil Treatment for $2.99 a bottle, I bought two. Not sure if a bottle of that will add sufficient ZDDP for Big Dodge, my '70 Dart's magnificent Slant 6, but it should take care of Winston.

The local Ace Hardware didn't have the STP. I walked over to the CarQuest across the lot... They didn't have the STP, but they did have BG MOA and BG RF-7, both of which mention that they reduce internal engine wear and cost 3x as much as the STP at Checker/Kragen/You're Nuts to Buy Parts Here.

Had a chat with a young mechanic at the CarQuest about how we're not very sure of how much of what is in those additives. He mentioned trying to get ahold of MSDS (I think that was the term) 'spill' sheets, that are used when a chemical spills to figure out cleaning techniques and to calculate hazards. That was clever, but I have no idea how to get those.

Data passed along as I stumble into it...

Best!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: Thoughtful! Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
I only know of one TruValue left in the Denver area, but I can have a look at any of several ACE stores.

The store locator at truevalue.com lists five stores near the 80001 zipcode, for whatever it's worth -- one of the "stores" listed for Portland carries a few odds & ends of paint supplies and miscellaneous stuff, but it's mostly a lumberyard.

There's a whole bunch of stuff I never would've thought to look for at a hardware store before I started working at one. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Thoughtful! Reply with quote

That makes you a very thoughtful person, Tristessa, I haven't been checking the hardware stores. I only know of one TruValue left in the Denver area, but I can have a look at any of several ACE stores.

I'll keep checking and hunting... At least we're all aware of the problem and out to save our engines while there's time to do it.

Best!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucko wrote:
tencentlife wrote:
Wel, Bob IS the Oil Guy, after all.


And you TENCENTLIFE for most everything else.


Thanks, bucko, for the very kind words.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Some Research... Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
STP red, which is officially known as 'STP 4 Cylinder Motor Oil Treatment' is MUCH cheaper and has more ZDDP in it. I've been looking for it at multiple FLAPS for some time, and haven't found it once. Still looking.

Look at a True Value hardware store. Some may carry it, any of them can order it (willing to is another issue); it's in all the distribution centers. Item number is 175-620, and since it's not an "f-pack" you shouldn't have to order an entire case. Might be able to find it at an Ace or Do It Best hardware store as well.

Disclaimer: I work for a True Value store, and just checked the catalog .. from home. On my day off, WTF is wrong with me? Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Wel, Bob IS the Oil Guy, after all.


And you TENCENTLIFE for most everything else.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My ZddPlus just arrived. (a day and a half!) from the Canadian source (he even threw in a few candies in the box) I am going to give this a good try. The website has some good information in it and I don't think it is snake oil. I am going to stay with Castrol GTX 20W50 which is what I have been using and is readily available at my FLAPS.

This thread along with all of the previous ones dealing with this issue have been very helpful in educating my poor little brain. There is of course no right answer but it helps to at least be comfortable with our decisions. My eyes glazed over with all the technical stuff for a long time until it finally started sinking in. I would like to thank everyone for their patients and willingness to "repeat until it sticks". I think I have really learned something here with your help. Again, my choices are my own, I wouldn't necessarily say it is even the best way to go, but I at least feel confident that I understand my decision rather than be at the mercy of some random mechanic somewhere.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:03 pm    Post subject: No Worries! Except about the Oil Reply with quote

First of all, Chris, don't worry, I'm not bothered that anecdotal evidence isn't enough for you--I'd like something I could trust, more, too. But BG MOA is something I can get and that a lot of the hotrodders in the Denver area are using. They, too, have hard-working flat tappet engines. BG MOA's biggest reputation, though, comes from its ability to prevent metal-on-metal wear in engines, exactly the issue we're facing. Here's a URL for the product:

http://www.bgprod.com/products/engineoil.html

and off the home page is a county-by-county listing of BG's distributors. We can get BG MOA up here in Denver, Chris, at NAPA and CarQuest stores. They also make another product called 'Engine Performance Concentrate' that mentions lubricants.

10C's point about the other additives playing hob with the oil, is, of course, valid. But we've got to find SOMETHING to save our engines, that oil is a-oxidizing even now. I'd like to see if anyone can find the STP 4-Cylinder treatment and test that. But, for the moment, BG MOA until I can get something demonstrably better or as good and cheaper!

Best!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bucko wrote:
And here is one more chart to post for those who have an interest in the amount of zinc (last column) in the oil they are currently using. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS TABLE COULD ALREADY BE OUT OF DATE, AS MANY OIL MANUFACTURERS ARE CHANGING THEIR FORMULA EACH YEAR.
(example: I bolded CASRTOL GTX to show it's zinc percentage of .12):


Earlier in this thread I posted the latest Technical specs of Castrol GTX and it currently stands at 0.09 zinc
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been getting a few PMs asking for the Canadian ZddPlus Rep.
He quoted me a price for a sixpac delivered (ExpressPost) of $76.00 +GST

Browns lane Jaguar Parts
46 Bishop Crescent
Markham, Ontario
Canada, L3P 4N6
Attn: Tom Owen
Telephone: 905-294-4946
Canada Toll Free: 1-800-832-8986
FAX: 905-294-0782
email: [email protected]

Just as a side note: The US mail-order seller quoted me:
#7178 Six-Pack of the Four-Ounce Bottles of ZDDPlusT $59.70 / six-pack plus shipping (about $20 to Canada) (+ GST at the border)

I think am going this route (order from Canada) with Castrol GTX 20W 50. I'll let you know in a few years how it works out.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If going with Royal Purple -- the original question -- go with Max Cycle 20w50. I am quite certain additives were discouraged at Jake Raby's site where Chris is a regular poster.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here is one more chart to post for those who have an interest in the amount of zinc (last column) in the oil they are currently using. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS TABLE COULD ALREADY BE OUT OF DATE, AS MANY OIL MANUFACTURERS ARE CHANGING THEIR FORMULA EACH YEAR.
(example: I bolded CASRTOL GTX to show it's zinc percentage of .12):

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50

AMSOIL(new) 155 474 -47 <.05 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .90 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .90 ---
Red Line 164 503 -49 --- ---
Royal Purple 138 435 -44 --- --- **
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-40

AMSOIL 124 500 -49 --- ---
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .90 ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
15W-50

Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 180 430 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 166 503 -49 --- ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-50

Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 ---
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Quaker State Prem.Syn 177 435 -35 --- --- **
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-40

Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel

AMSOIL 170 460 -60 <.05 ---




Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
15W-40

AMSOIL(new) 157 446 -49 <.05 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .90 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 Super Syn (NEW) 155 491 -49 --- --- ** (Auctually 15W 50)
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 155 495 -40 --- ---
Royal Purple 149 400 -49 --- --- ** (Auctually 10W 40)
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13



Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
10W-30

AMSOIL 171 464 -54 <.05 ---
AMSOIL XL-7500 148 471 -54 <.05 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Castrol Syntec 157 455 -54 --- .10
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 --- 430 -60 --- ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn.(NEW) 145 455 -49 --- --- **
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .90 ---
Quaker State Prem Syn 148 440 -40 --- --- **
Red Line 150 475 -40 --- ---
Royal Purple 148 400 -49 --- --- **
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .90 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12



Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
5W-30

AMSOIL 186 478 -60 <.05 ---
AMSOIL XL-7500 160 464 -60 <.05 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synth. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 150 430 -65 --- ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn (NEW) 169 455 -54 --- --- **
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .10
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Quaker State Prem Syn 151 440 -49 --- --- **
Red Line 165 455 -49 --- ---
Royal Purple 160 395 -44 --- --- **
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12



Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
0W-30

AMSOIL 188 460 -76 --- ---
Mobil 1 175 460 -65 --- ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn (NEW) 176 450 -65 --- --- **
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181
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