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torrinswanson
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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 Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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Looking for help on a 1980 Vanagon Air-Cooled no-start issues when cold with ambient temps ranging between 0-15 degrees Celsius over the past 3-4 days.
Symptoms:
- Van cranks but does not start.
- Intermittently, but not all the time, starts with starting fluid in the intake. When no-start is happening, the van doesn't cough even with starting fluid.
- Always starts when fired once within the hour. Always start when warm after a drive. In the summer, always started.
Things checked:
- Battery voltage: 12.6V idle, and 12.3V when cranking.
- Cold start valve (CSV) has a good spray pattern
- Fuel injectors very recently cleaned (September) and confirmed working. Also tested with ECU. ~7-9ohms each. (Note: When replaced in September, we got a lot of backfiring, so we adjusted the timing to get running well, van has sat since, and haven't done final timing adjustments yet.)
- Temp sensor 2 - 10.6k ohms @ -15C
- Other blue sensor wire (next to distributor), 7.2 ohms at -15C
- Great compression: #1 @ 135, #4 @ 142, #2 @ 110, #3 @ 125
- Double relay checked to be good. Can bypass fuel pump with bridging 88y and 88d. Fuel pump can be triggered manually through AFM wiper as well. Works great. Can feel it running when cranking
- Double relay - 86a is 10.4V when cranking (starter signal wire)
- ECU wiring harness passes all tests from Bentley.
- Checked spark on all cylinders, a little yellow/blue.
- New cap & rotor, checked for heat marks up inside on the terminals. Looks fine.
- checked points while cranking. Bright blue spark here.
- Timing set back in September and was running well.
- Ignition Coil: Beru 12V
Primary 3.6 ohms
Secondary - 15k ohms
Cranking: 8.9 to 9.88 to 10.3V on #15
- Have tried a performance coil from local auto parts store with no luck. With primary at 1.7ohms and secondary at 9.2k ohms
- Series resistor pack has some wire cracks and looks bad but tests well with 6.5-12.6 ohms. With this pattern
1 - 2 - 3
4 - X - 6
where between #1 and #4 = 12.6ohms, between #3 & #6 = 12.6ohms, and all others against #2 = 6.5ohms (in spec)
- AFM 6-pins test well as per Bentley.
Tested this morning:
- Charged battery
- 2 new spark plugs on #3 and #2
- Cleaned all grounds meticulously. Double relay ground, side wiring box ground, transmission strap.
- Refreshed the points with sand paper and set at 0.019"
- Fixed a kinked fuel hose
- Starting fluid
- Started right up and kept dying b/c of missing bottom bolt on cold start valve. Closed that vacuum leak and the engine purred. Took it for a 15km trip with no issues. Warm start = a fire on second crank.
3 hours later:
- No-start. Just cranking.
- No coughing with starting fluid at all.
Tried:
- Cleaned points, charged battery, warmed up Beru ignition coil inside. Warm battery. Checked the 2 new replacement spark plugs. A bit black but not bad. (i.e a single 15km trip with them)
- No-start.
Diagnosis:
- No coughing with starting fluid must mean this is a spark issue. Still an intermittent ground anywhere? My only next test is to get a new 00012 bosch blue ignition coil and maybe flipping the ECU upside down to rule out the "infamous ECU wire strain issue".
- Anything else to check?
_________________
1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion spring/summer 2022
Last edited by torrinswanson on Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:33 am; edited 7 times in total |
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GoEverywhere
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2020
Posts: 516
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| Have you tried holding a spark plug wire near a ground to see if it sparks against the ground proving your ignition system is working? Certainly sounds like its an ignition problem based on your list. |
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4Gears4Tires
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Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3019
Location: MD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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I would verify spark at each cylinder and then fuel at each cylinder.
Have you tried unplugging the cold start valve?
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'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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torrinswanson
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:02 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| GoEverywhere wrote: |
| Have you tried holding a spark plug wire near a ground to see if it sparks against the ground proving your ignition system is working? Certainly sounds like its an ignition problem based on your list. |
Yes, all cylinders have yellow/blue spark.
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1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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torrinswanson
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:06 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
I would verify spark at each cylinder and then fuel at each cylinder.
Have you tried unplugging the cold start valve? |
- Verified spark on each cylinder.
- Yup, unplugged it to verify the spray pattern on the injector. Sprayed well.
- Haven't verified fuel at each cylinder yet again. (Fuel injectors were just ultrasonically cleaned and fuel delivery in and spray pattern in check). But yeah, that doesn't mean there is fuel getting to the cylinders. Will check tomorrow.
But why no cough when starting fluid sprayed directly into the intake? Through the throttle body and again through the hole for the cold start valve when disconnected.
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1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22640
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:54 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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Did I miss new cap and rotor? What’s the history there?
Same with plug wires?
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2328
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:50 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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The Cold Start Valve is the "Choke" on the Air-cool Injection System.
How did you verify the good spray pattern on CSV? Was your verification while cranking the engine over?
If the CSV is working properly and Starting Fluid doesn't result in a cough, the the issue must be a weak Spark.
The ignition wire to the Coil is a long run from the front. As a temporary set-up, try jumping with at least a 12 gauge wire from the positive on the Battery directly to the Coil. That will simulate Ignition On. Then, with Ignition, turn it to Start to see if it starts.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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torrinswanson
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:40 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| Abscate wrote: |
Did I miss new cap and rotor? What’s the history there?
Same with plug wires? |
- Yup, new cap & rotor back in September. Exact same results with the old cap and rotor.
- Plug wires haven't been replaced. They tested well with great connection on the plugs, cap and coil.
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1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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torrinswanson
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:45 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
The Cold Start Valve is the "Choke" on the Air-cool Injection System.
How did you verify the good spray pattern on CSV? Was your verification while cranking the engine over?
If the CSV is working properly and Starting Fluid doesn't result in a cough, the the issue must be a weak Spark.
The ignition wire to the Coil is a long run from the front. As a temporary set-up, try jumping with at least a 12 gauge wire from the positive on the Battery directly to the Coil. That will simulate Ignition On. Then, with Ignition, turn it to Start to see if it starts. |
- Must be weak spark.
- Pulled the CSV with the two bolts off the intake. Held it a half inch from the intake and cranked the engine. It sprayed well. This verifies the TTS is working as well.
- I swear we have tested this off the 88y on the double relay. But i'ill try jumping this from the battery here today.
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- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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pathao
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2012
Posts: 291
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:10 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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My first thought was : timing
Then read your post. Looks like you went through all the points I could think of (even the "keep the coil warm inside the house"'s part) . Then I notice this
| torrinswanson wrote: |
...
- 2 new spark plugs on #3 and #2
...
- Starting fluid + extra air due to vacuum leak
- Started right up
...
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Makes me think, difficulty breathing.
In summer time, cold-start, were your valves noisy ? could it be improper valve adjustment.
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1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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torrinswanson
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Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| Quote: |
Makes me think, difficulty breathing.
In summer time, cold-start, were your valves noisy ? could it be improper valve adjustment. |
I don't remember being overly noisy.
In summertime, the van was running on only a few cylinders and wasn't misfiring. Pulled injectors and got them cleaned and tested. Put 'em back in and misfiring all over the place. Started very well tho. Adjusted timing and was running on all 4 nicely. (Then the inspection shop wanted a grinding 2nd gear dealt with before safetying it, so I spent 2 months rebuilding the 091 DH and the van sat where it is).
I agree with difficulty breathing. To get the starting fluid into the intake, the AFM was disconnected and throttle was wide open. Fired. Then put back the AFM and wouldn't idle properly. Then noticed the CSV bottom bolt wasn't there. Threaded that in and the idle got better with every turn of the bolt. Can't get this scenario to happen again tho.
An hypothesis, the CSV is flooding everything and starting fluid can't do anything. Except, it has never coughed on first-start when sitting for a while
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1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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torrinswanson
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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Here's the spark plugs after the 15km run. I'd say a bit black.
#2
#3
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- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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Phishman068
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torrinswanson
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Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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- Checked spark again - all nice and blue
- Checked resistance at injectors, 2.4ohms. 9ohms at ecu wiring harness.
- Driver-side injectors spraying when cranking.
- Jumped injectors at their terminals and they spray. Still connected to ring main.
- Jumped injectors at the ECU wiring harness and they spray. #14, #15, #32, #33 to ground.
- Jumped the coil from battery to #15 and no difference.
- Cold-start valve (CSV) 8-9V when cranking.
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- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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wcdennis
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Posts: 955
Location: Winston-Salem NC
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| Here is a thought: You say you haven’t driven the van much recently, could stale gas in your tank be contributing to your problem? Old gas loses it’s combustibility, so you may be getting to a flood condition right away. After cranking for a while have you pulled a plug to see if it’s wet? Wet-with-fuel plugs act just like no spark. |
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torrinswanson
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Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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| wcdennis wrote: |
| Here is a thought: You say you haven’t driven the van much recently, could stale gas in your tank be contributing to your problem? Old gas loses it’s combustibility, so you may be getting to a flood condition right away. After cranking for a while have you pulled a plug to see if it’s wet? Wet-with-fuel plugs act just like no spark. |
- Premium (94octane) went in the tank on September 24th. That's not that old of gas.
- Pulling plugs right after cranking for long periods doesn't show signs of being wet.
Another update:
- Checked fuel pressure. 36psi when pumping. 34psi thereafter.
- Jumping injectors gives a drop from 36psi down to ~20psi in 3 seconds.
- Fuel pressure drops from resting 34psi down to 32psi in 15minutes. 32psi in 30 minutes and 30psi in 1hour. 30psi in 4 hours. 30psi after 12 hours.
- After cranking for 10 seconds = 34psi.
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1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion spring/summer 2022
Last edited by torrinswanson on Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pathao
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Joined: November 01, 2012
Posts: 291
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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Well, that's a bomber ! (blue punted intended)
Looks like you are doing everything right, looking/testing everything right. I think that's why we're all trying to think out of the box. But, probability speaking, must be something very simple.
Like as been said
| djkeev wrote: |
Fuel
Spark
Compression
All in a proper quantity at the correct time.
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and, may I add, in the proper place
For sure, should make some pouf-pouf. I am surprise of this
| torrinswanson wrote: |
- Pulling plugs right after cranking for long periods doesn't show signs of being wet.
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Mine in storage so I cannot test that, but I would expect that if I disable the coil (no catch-up same like you), the plugs should become wet (and maybe have a smell of gas lingering around)
When cranking
- do you have pressure building up at the end of the muffler's tail pipe ?
- do you have vacuum at the plenum (plug SBOOT hoses and look for suction - or remove throttle body and look for suction - or easy more, look if the flap from the AFM opens up when cranking ? at least mine does enough to send the signal to the fuel pump -- mean you could remove wire from starter to double relay, if have power to fuel pump it is because coming from open AFM flap). side story : Pulled my uncle' straight 8 from his wreck Buick lying in the field. Would blowback in the carb. could not get it to start and/or figuring it out. When undo the intake manifold, little friends had something going on way down there. nothing was passing to the inside of the cylinders. (just thinking out of the box)
- timing : you sure position of the dizzy rotor match with the valves position ( eg TDC compression stroke #1 cyl). that rotor is "strong" ?
- mixture : that's a tough one, right! Those injector should spray while cranking. Does the AFM flap opens while cranking?
- spark : they all spark at once
Maybe try playing with timing (a few degrees more - a few degrees less)
Maybe trying to pull all the plugs and put some ether straight in the cylinder (not too much)
Hang in there
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1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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pathao
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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Maybe your anwser lays in
| torrinswanson wrote: |
_________________
1980 Air Cooled Westy.
- EV conversion winter 2021/2022
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1982 AC P27 - 2.0 FI FED - 091 - BA6
English is a second language to me |
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torrinswanson
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Joined: July 12, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Winnipeg
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1980 Vanagon Air Cooled Cold Start Issues - Checked Everything |
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Point's contact surfaces are burning up for some reason. Just replaced with a new set and starting fluid made it fire. Runs well this morning. I just shut it down and will wait another hour before starting again.
Old point contacts were quite blue. What's weird is, after one cleaning session with fine sand paper it then fired well. I guess they burnt up again. Wouldn't start. Then second time I cleaned them and reset the gap/dwell, it never fired. Strange. But anyways, new ones made it fire. I guess the spark wasn't strong enough in the end.
Hopefully the story ends monday with a Pertronix 1867A ignitor upgrade.
- Swapped back to stock cap and rotor, and runs well.
- Fuel pump holds at 30psi while running.
| Quote: |
| Maybe your answer lays in "EV conversion" |
Yeah, doing all this for me just to pull the ICE engine very soon. Just love it.
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- EV conversion spring/summer 2022 |
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