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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| funagon wrote: |
Hey MightyArt, I notice you deleted at least one of your earlier posts. Too bad because you spoke the truth. I hope you let the rest of this thread remain the way it is, thanks. |
I haven't taken anything out of this thread, I even left the bad word I wrote when I was mad, I'm kind of embarrassed by it, but I left it to be fair.
I don't like editing posts or whole threads, none of the moderaters do that's why most posts get deleted whole when they get to heated.
This one contains to much useful info. to delete so I said I would split it, but I haven't taken out anything because it stopped and got back on topic. |
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funagon
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Joined: March 09, 2006
Posts: 1308
Location: SLC, UT
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, then. When a post gets this long it can be hard for me to go back and find the quote that I was looking for. I think The original poster has got enough of our opinions. So I'll stop posting on this topic.
_________________
1990 GL 7-passenger
2.2 liter WBX |
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xlr8r
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Joined: February 12, 2008
Posts: 82
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| funagon wrote: |
| Thanks, then. So I'll stop posting on this topic. |
That's a relief!
As long as he's gone, I'm back in.
There is such a thing as ACV. It is not arbitrary, although it can be subjective. It certainly is not based upon simply looking at the classified section of the newspaper.
ACV is the acceptable retail current market resale value of a vehicle if an insurance company were to purchase it for cash. ACV is established with a professional-certified appraisal utilizing accepted and approved guidelines. It's important to remember that the appraised value is the educated value of one appraiser. Another appraiser may derive a higher or lower value. This doesn't mean one is correct, the other wrong. It's simply a difference of opinion. As long as the appraised values are within several hundred dollars there should be no appreciative concern.
It may be helpful to Margalo 13 to point out that there is a process of arbitration that may be requested if an agreement cannot be reached as to the settlement.
This would not cost anything out of pocket and does not require an attorney.
_________________
1991- Seven passenger with 3.3 SVX ; 1987 - Seven Passenger with 2.5 Subaru |
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Lanval
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Joined: June 09, 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Xlr8r; subjective but not arbitrary?
From the Oxford English Dictionary:
3. Derived from mere opinion or preference; not based on the nature of things; hence, capricious, uncertain, varying.
1646 SIR T. BROWNE Pseud. Ep. 170 From succeeding spectators they received arbitrary appellations. 1753 JOHNSON Advent. No. 111 {page}6 Our estimation of birth is arbitrary and capricious. 1865 TYLOR Early Hist. Man. iii. 35, I do not believe there is a really arbitrary sign among them. 1865 R. W. DALE Jew. Temple xiii. (1877) 143 Their whole scheme of interpretation is purely arbitrary.
Note the first listed definition is now obsolete; the second is only applicable to law.
The way you use subjective here suggests that you are thinking of that word meaning this:
4. a. Pertaining or peculiar to an individual subject or his mental operations; depending upon one's individuality or idiosyncrasy; personal, individual.
a1767 T. BOSTON Serm. (1850) 77 There is an internal subjective discovery of Christ made in, and unto the soul, that finds him by the Holy Ghost. 1796 Nitsch's View Kant's Princ. 195 When any thing determines our will which is founded upon the subjective qualification of the individual, it is merely agreeable, though it may not be bad. 1818 HALLAM Mid. Ages (1872) I. 112 Sismondi never fully learned to judge men according to a subjective standard, that is, their own notions of right and wrong. 1858 O. W. HOLMES Aut. Breakf.-t. xi, The ingenuous reader will understand that this was an internal, personal, private, subjective diorama. a1871 GROTE Eth. Fragm. ii. (1876) 42 This sentiment is..a subjective sentiment{em}that is, each individual experiences it in a degree and manner peculiar to himself.
The price the OP has been offered IS arbitrary in that it's not based on actual sales. You're sitting here telling a bunch of people who spend their time buying and selling Vanagons and watching other people selling vanagons that their dollar values are arbitrary, whereas the Ins. Co. is merely 'subjective'.
In the terms you are using, the ACV must de facto be represented by those who actually deal in the object in question, and not by the opinion of a Ins. Co. that spends virtually no time dealing with this problem whatsoever. In that sense, the closest possible ACV can ONLY be derived from the collective experience of those who involved in dealing with vanagons and price. That ain't the insurance co.
Want proof? Ask some of the guys here for market variables ~ what would a vanagon of a given value go for in California, vs. Michigan vs. NY. Now call your adjustor. The adjustor has no clue, nor can he easily get one. Unless he came here (or some place like here) and worked to find out.
The argument that is being deployed regarding the wisdom of settling for the amount offered by the insurance co. (1. that the insurance co. can't be beat; 2. that they have access to a fixed, truthful value) does not recognize its own (baised and faulty) assumptions, and as such, does not stand up to basic tests of logic.
Lanval
Lanval |
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funagon
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Joined: March 09, 2006
Posts: 1308
Location: SLC, UT
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Xlr8r already bowed out of this conversation once, then jumped back in. So I don't mind returning to point out this insurance-industry bias:
| Quote: |
| It may be helpful to Margalo 13 to point out that there is a process of arbitration that may be requested if an agreement cannot be reached as to the settlement. |
There's a reason that arbitration costs nothing, and doesn't require an attorney. It's because arbitration does not protect your interests.
In my opinion arbitration is much worse than going to court. The arbitrator acts as judge and jury, does not have to follow the rules of court that are designed to protect fairness and your interests, yet the arbitrator makes a binding, final determination just as a judge would do. The arbitrator is usually quite chummy with the insurance company and buys the insurance B.S. hook, line, and sinker. This is because the insurance company regularly hires the same arbitrator to arbitrate disagreements. Therefore, the arbitrator is always looking to the insurance company for future jobs and doesn't want to piss them off.
Mediation is better than arbitration. It is a structured way to engage in negotiations leading to a settlement. The parties are more in control of a mediation and are not required to settle (although mediation can often lead to settlement). The insurance company doesn't like it because it's not as "efficient" (i.e. you won't get railroaded in mediation like you will in an arbitration). A good mediatior costs something, but you can't get something for nothing.
Big money making companies favor arbitration, because arbitration favors big companies. Most companies have an arbitration clause written into any agreements that you sign to keep their litigation costs down. I always turn it down or strike it out. The arbitration clause commonly states that by accepting you voluntarily give up your right to a trial over any disagreements that might come up in the future.
Give up my right to a trial? Over an as-yet-unknown issue? My right to trial is a Constitutional right. If the insurance companies want me to give up the rights that are written into the U.S. Constitution, they must have a good reason for it, eh? Something about those irritating laws that consumers seem to like?
You can also wait. Draw out the negotiation. Make them come around to your point of view.
_________________
1990 GL 7-passenger
2.2 liter WBX |
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xlr8r
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2008
Posts: 82
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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The ACV is not arbitrary (meaning selected at random). In other words, there is an accepted method of arriving at a value.
It is subjective (meaning subject to someones opinion)
Re: Arbitration
Here is the language of MY company's auto policy. I'm not quoting word for word, this is a summary so don't go all Webster on me.
If we don't agree on a value, the disagreement will be settled by arbitration under the rules of the American Arbitration Association. If either party objects, the following method will be used instead.
You select an arbitrator, we select another. The two arbitrators will select a 3rd.
The written decision of any 2 will settle the issues.
Sounds like a fair deal to me.
The constant suggestion to "wait" is foolish. The insurance company will sit on an open file forever. It cost nothing for them to wait particularly when they have made a fair offer and the disagreement is over a small property damage claim. Remember, nobody was injured here. We are talking about body damage to a vehicle.
Let me say here that I find no fault in Margalo 13's approach. I have said before that she has shown that she has the smarts to settle this claim on her own.
I'm totally blown away by some of the others who would cry fowl and claim that a consumer is being screwed by an evil insurance company. Most of the time, insurance ompanies do great work in people lives. Once, I was called to the scene of a total loss house fire late at night. My customer and their family was in the street watching their home burn down due to a careless act of one of the family. Fortunately the family had a good insurance policy in force. Their immediate needs were taken care of and in less than a year they rebuilt a brand new home on the site. New furniture, clothes, everything! Ask these people what they think of insurance?
_________________
1991- Seven passenger with 3.3 SVX ; 1987 - Seven Passenger with 2.5 Subaru
Last edited by xlr8r on Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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xlr8r
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Joined: February 12, 2008
Posts: 82
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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You cetainly said a mouthful.
| Lanval wrote: |
| In the terms you are using, the ACV must de facto be represented by those who actually deal in the object in question, and not by the opinion of a Ins. Co. that spends virtually no time dealing with this problem whatsoever. |
What I said is that an independant certified appraiser made the determination of the value. I assure you they DO deal in the object in question.
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1991- Seven passenger with 3.3 SVX ; 1987 - Seven Passenger with 2.5 Subaru |
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funagon
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Joined: March 09, 2006
Posts: 1308
Location: SLC, UT
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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xlr8r wrote:
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Let me say here that I find no fault in Margalo 13's approach. I have said before that she has shown that she has the smarts to settle this claim on her own.
I'm totally blown away by some of the others who would cry fowl and claim that a consumer is being screwed by an evil insurance company. |
I don't think anyone has made such a claim. You don't read carefully enough. As for myself, I have stated in almost every post that Margalo13 seems to be doing the right thing, and that if she can get enough money to fix the van then she's done. No disagreement there.
What myself and others have objected to is your cheerleading for the trustworthiness of the great pater familias insurance company, along with some legal misinformation and what I perceive as a bad attitude.
Glad to disagree with you, but I don't mean to get personal. If apologies are in order then I offer mine.
_________________
1990 GL 7-passenger
2.2 liter WBX
Last edited by funagon on Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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AFZ272
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Joined: September 05, 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Kathy, I wish you luck in this.
I just wanted to point out one detail regarding salvaged vehicles, and this is taken from the KBB site:
"A salvaged, reconstructed or otherwise "clouded" title has a permanent negative effect on the value of a vehicle. The industry rule of thumb is to deduct 20% to 40% of the Blue Book value."
Please factor this in to your final decision, that in the end your Westy will be harder to sell and be worth less with the salvaged title. Your $11K Westy will now be worth only $6600 to $8800 and you're spending $10K to fix it.
Rich |
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mightyart
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Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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What Richard says about a salvage title is quite true, but it will only become one if the insurance company totals it.
Then when they sell it at auction, the buyer will get a salvage title.
If the buyer is you, then you will have your van back but it will have a salvage title.
If you have it fixed, the title doesn't change hands so it remains the same. |
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Pascaa
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Joined: September 27, 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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not so if they do a contract price (or whatever the term is in Texas)... the van is yours with a salvage title and a check for you to fix it. It comes with a dandy contract from your friendly ins co that shields them from you ever coming back to them for more money... better read the fineprints.
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Pascal
1982 1.9 TD Westy Bertha
1985 Westy Oscar - would trade for syncro Vanagon
2000 Fork pick up (work truck)
2004 Mazda 6 wagon (her car) |
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Pascaa
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Joined: September 27, 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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if i were the ins co, i would total it.
if i were the owner, i would total it.
if i were the garage, id pray every night that the 2 above total it.
but thats just my opinion and it is worth what you paid for, ie NOTHING.
See this for a nice job done a 2005 car... http://traxtermaster.homeip.net/jetta.html
But that was only a 9000$ job... should that car been totaled, in my book, yes. Now lets look at pictures of the van in question...
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Pascal
1982 1.9 TD Westy Bertha
1985 Westy Oscar - would trade for syncro Vanagon
2000 Fork pick up (work truck)
2004 Mazda 6 wagon (her car) |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Pascaa wrote: |
| not so if they do a contract price (or whatever the term is in Texas)... the van is yours with a salvage title and a check for you to fix it. It comes with a dandy contract from your friendly ins co that shields them from you ever coming back to them for more money... better read the fineprints. |
I'd total it to but thats me.
Having to get a salvage title on a vehical that never changes hands,
I can't see the state having to issue a salvage title.
I've had vehicals fixed by insurance before and never had to worry about title work, but I'm not an expert so I'm not going to argue the point.
If you want the van bad enough to have it fixed I'd guess you're not to worried about selling it. |
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Margalo13
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Joined: February 21, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'll post a couple of photos, but I have to figure out how. I'm checking the FAQs on here. Stay tuned.
By the way, my status is that I just sat on it today. Still chewing over everything after the frenzy of negotiation and info collection.
There won't be a salvage title. |
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Margalo13
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Joined: February 21, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Austin, Texas
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Pascaa
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Joined: September 27, 2007
Posts: 72
Location: Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Difficult to say with the pics but i have a hard time seing 10000$ of damages on those pics.
Are the doors opening and closing properly, did the radiator move at all? how about the crunch zones or the impact bars underneath, what happened to the floor, anything?
I'm no expert and i do not do bodywork but from the pics given it doesnt seem as bad as i imagined it.
Make the decision that makes you confortable and time IS your friend.
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Pascal
1982 1.9 TD Westy Bertha
1985 Westy Oscar - would trade for syncro Vanagon
2000 Fork pick up (work truck)
2004 Mazda 6 wagon (her car) |
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Margalo13
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Joined: February 21, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Austin, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| The driver's side door does hang up a bit which scared me at first, but the body shop guy says no problem. Floor seems fine. |
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mightyart
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Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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This thread takes another left turn!
No I would not total that, I thought it would be all messed up for $10,000
A vanagon is built rigid, not like newer cars with crumple zones.
Something very strange is going on here,
have you been able to drive it?
When our Honda was totaled one front wheel was going left and the other went right, the passenger side was all pushed in from the front fender to the door they totlaed it because the repairs where so close to the blue book that it was cheaper to total it.
We got 7,500.00 for our honda so fixing it would've been about 8,000.
Something fishy is going on. |
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mightyart
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Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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This was PDXwesty's ride
This is totaled.
That is what I expected to see.
You need to take that into Austin and get a second estimate. |
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Lanval
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Joined: June 09, 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Mightyart,
I agree ~ we now need to know why the insurance co. wants to total this...
I will note that my 89 Jeep was totaled with only apparent minor damage. In that case, the frame was no longer straight, damage that couldn't be repaired for less than REPLACEMENT value.
One other thing, though - the Insurance Co.'s estimator found $400 in damage. I took it to a private shop, who informed me about the frame. Why is that important? Because if you sign off on the repairs, it's your problem for real. You can probably sue, but when you sign that all repairs have been completed, that's pretty much it.
FWIW.
There isn't enough damage there to justify the numbers that have been reported, so either there is more damage that I'm not seeing, or something more nefarious (or stupid) is going on.
Best,
Lanval |
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