Jalousie (louvered) windows in a Vanagon

[msinabottle]

Work proceeds apace...

Today I did final polishing on the aluminum frame and the components--some more Dremeling, where there were still 'chunkies,' as Ratwell called them, some more oil and steel wool, and finally... Mother's Rim and Aluminum polish.



I have never seen a metal polish work better in a shorter time with less polish in my life. I didn't expect it to get much of anything, I'd been pretty thorough! IT GOT LOTS, and I had a mirror finish on my aluminum as soon as I'd used it. It even made the grungy steel winding rod look CHROMED. Yow. Unlike Ratwell's experience, I didn't find it leaving any black behind, I think that's from all my other endeavors at cleaning.

After I had them all polished, I put the smaller pieces in a large cardboard box and sprayed clear acrylic lacquer on those, and then the frame components and rod in an effort to preserve 'the gleam.' Hope that works. Then I drilled all the winders, lifters, everything that had been riveted to 5/32", which was very easy, you're just not taking out that much metal from a 9/64" hole! I'm going to need another 6 of those Mylar washers, there were clear signs of abrasion and strain where the winders had been riveted into the frame.

Got out the seal kit and inspected it while it dried--tried not to go insane contemplating it...



I think I'll use a bit of Cornhusker's Lotion, which evaporates, as a lubricant when I install the seals. I don't have any of the old orinigal butyl rubber sealant, but I have some very good '50 Year' silicone clear sealant I think I'll use instead.

Tomorrow I plan on reassembling the basic lifter mechanism, I think I'll coat each rivet with white lithium before putting it all together. Not sure if I should use a spacer, but I probably should in an effort to keep from crushing everything too strongly together... With the washers, I'm thinking a single business card.

Once I get the mechanism together, then it's reassembling the panel glass in their frames with the seals. After that I'm stuck 'til my friend with the table saw can find the time and the strength--he's got a cold--to do the cutting and routering of the frames and the ripping of the bar stock aluminum. More seals and reassembly, than gluing... fitting... framing... Rounding the corners with an angle grinder... INSTALLING...

Then I start over again with the one for the rear passenger's side window.



Thanks for the interest and encouragement, folks.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[msinabottle]

Today I got the entire mechanism, except for the rod, riveted back together and back into the frames--the ones on the sides.

Just about all my anxieties about those 1/2" grip 5/32" Stainless Steel Rivets were unjustified. With a bit of a struggle, my BIG Craftsman pop-riveting tool was up to the challenge, the Mylar washers worked fine, and I used an expendable business card as a spacer.

I had been worried because the heads of the stainless steel rivets won't fit in the space for them in the winders--I just reversed the rivets (the ones to the frame) and everything worked fine, Ratwell thought he might do that for looks, not function.

If YOU do that, it's usually best to put the business card, with a hole punched through it, between the rivet head and the surface being riveted, that came out the most easily. In other places, the cardboard stayed pretty well wedged, so that I literally had to pick it out, if I could get it out at all. The white lithium grease I put everywhere seemed to help--in a few places the ends of those rivets could just brush the sides of the frame or the mechanism, things smoothed out with a bit of grinding and prying. Pinching the mechanism up into the area where the spacer was does wonders for the smoothness of the mechanism.

I tried in one case using a Mylar washer on either side of the rivet's grip, that was NOT better than just putting one in between the frame and the mechanism. I rather miscounted the number of rivets needed--you need 14 per window, six for the inner frame mechanism, six more to attach the winders to the frame, and two to attach the mechanism arms to the winder assembly.

My friend with the table saw won't be able to help me trim off the 'Bay' 'Y' extrusions until this weekend, so my current plan is to put in the seals and completely reassemble this window--then take out the panes before he saws.

I can't do that on the other one because it'll have to be sawed DOWN, but I can pull the frames, at least, and he can get rid of the 'Y's again. I'll also see about getting the bar stock--who knows, we might be able to glue them up! We're going to use an angle grinder to round the edges of the built-up frames.

Once I get the seals in--the basic rule, I've decided, is that there's a seal every where glass touches metal or metal touches metal--I can put the first window entirely back together. I can then take the other one apart, I think I'll call my powder coating guy and see what he'd need to soda blast them. Cleaning them myself DID work, but it was a tough job, if it's not TOO much I wouldn't mind finding out if it looked better than my own work.

I've been keeping the window I plan on using for the passenger's side rear intact to help me reassemble the first one. They're not QUITE identical, Chris at BustedBus SAID he was picking out his two best, and I think he got 'em from different vans. Prince of a fellow, Chris. Progressing, I plan on using some kind of lubricant to slide in the seals, I have a mini pry-bar and a small set of channel locks for crimping and uncrimping. Ratwell said this was the hardest part--wish me luck!

Ongoing...

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[dobryan]

Sounds like you've got a work of art there. Do you have any pics of the process?

I remember that I was unable to uncrimp the slot for some of the seals and had to cut a small opening to access the slot after the crimp in order to feed in the seal. The result was fine, but those seals are a PITA for sure.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[danfromsyr]

I've been looking at mine, and my bro has started the dissassembly for his DS set.
I think you can 'SCORE & SNAP' the Y channel off the frame, run a sharp awl or scraper down the bottom a few times, then with a nice set of pliers twist (rock) it back and forth, should snap at the scored mark.. clean up with a file, chisel, sander wheel on a drill or etc..

for trimming the flats, you could use a hacksaw/coping saw with a guide

[CF]

pictures,pictures



we need pictures..................

[msinabottle]

That didn't go well at all.

I reviewed Ratwell's site very carefully, but I only managed to reassemble one of the three panes on the window I'm doing now, and in the course of two and a half hours I ruined the seal on the 2nd one and got absolutely nowhere in reassembling it.

You have to get the seals around each of the panes--they twist, fall off, and when you get them on they pop off and then try to sever themselves on the sharp corners of the glass. I made the cuts Ratwell suggested, they are so you can get the aluminum frame of the pane on and over the rubber seal, and then along on the edge of the tempered glass pane. I was very afraid of shattering the old, brittle tempered glass as I worked. I used clothes pins to try and hold the seals in place while I slid the aluminum along the rubber and tried to keep the seal on the window. I used baby oil in an effort to keep the aluminum from galling on the rubber.

That eventually worked on the first pane, nothing, nothing whatsoever, worked on the 2nd one. It cut itself on the edge of the window, and would not stay in place no matter what I tried when I tried to get the aluminum frame edge over it and along the glass. It would bunch up, get cut, bulge, and then lift the aluminum frame off the glass and off the assembly altogether. The seal is torn to shreds.

I can order a third entire seal set from CIP or Wolfsberg West for $29 plus shipping, it is true that I am quite likely to destroy other seals in my efforts. You can't just press the frame down on the glass over the seal, the rubber sinks in and gets crushed under the frame and pushe away from the edges of the glass. I will stop by a pretty good hardware store tomorrow and see if there is some kind of storm window molding or moleskin I can adapt. The original seals on these windows appear to have been plastic, more rigid than the rubber. I can see why.

When I recover my spirits and feel better, I will take pictures in the course of restoring the 2nd window. In the meantime, of course, you can go look at Ratwell's site here:

http://homepage.mac.com/ratwell/78_Westy/PhotoAlbum59.html

I am very discouraged, and tired. It has been an unpleasant day.
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[msinabottle]

It gets better.

I have the winders riveted on the wrong sides of the two assemblies. I'll have to drill out all twelve of the stainless steel rivets and start over again.

I have had better weeks.
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[foodeater]

Can you bevel the edges or at least take down the corners on the panes so that they can't cut or tear the seals? Since the sealing surface of the gasket is not on the outside edge (its on the faces) of the panes rounding the corners, i'm thinking around 1/16", may make it easier to install the panes into their frames. just a thought. 180 or 220 wet sanding works on glass (use a block to make sure you dont cut your hands).
_________________
89 Bluestar-2.5 Subaru Powered-RIP
'84 Westy Tiico-daily driver-sold
'82 Caddy diesel-sold
'87 Vanagon Syncro-RIP
'81 diesel rabbit-sold
'82 Vanagon auto-RIP

[KeninMorganHill]

Am getting ready to tear into this project myself. Scored my 1st Jalouise for $6.00 from the local P&P. Will go back tomorrow and try to nab the 2nd one.

Stay tuned for updates.

- K

[CF]

msinbottle.
i have a "booklet" for doing the windows but i can't figure out how to set it up in a pdf format.they are a insturctions on setting and installing them in a vanagon..send me a e mail and i can send the them to you in a few e mails.

[Volksaholic]

msinabottle: Sorry to hear of the grief it's giving you... it sounded like you were off to a great start. I appreciate your posting of the good and the bad, and I hope it gets better from here on out.

foodeater: If I recall correctly, he's dealing with the original tempered glass on this set. If that's the case the corners couldn't be rounded. I thought the same thing when I read about the glass cutting the seals. On his cut down set he will have to replace the glass with new glass or plastic, then that's an option.
_________________
1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251

[msinabottle]

Some days you just know someone's out to get you. I am also likely to lose my job, the one for which I bought Winston in the first place.

I do have an idea of what went wrong, at least, one of the things that went wrong on the 2nd pane yesterday. Browsing some of the threads on the Bay Window forum, I found a fellow saying, 'Some oil would lubricate the aluminum' and another person warning, 'Don't use carbon-based oils! They make that kind of rubber swell!'



I really believe that. The baby oil I had used as lubricant had seemed to help so much on the first window, I used quite a bit more of it on the 2nd pane. Baby Oil is just very refined mineral oil. Since things got worse the longer I struggled, I think I have that explained pretty well.

The Bay Window fellow said to use SILICONE based oil as a lubricant, I'm going to go to the hardware store to check for that (It's used for paintball guns as an internal lubricant, it doesn't degrade the seals), more of those rivets--I'll need 14 more @ $.60 each, more of the mylar washers ($.28 each) , and perhaps a good quality carbide drill bit of about 5/32" size. I can see if they have some sort of window gasket material, or I might just use silicone sealer in the frames around the glass and see how that works, the RV people and the Marine Window people have had some success with that.

The frame of the intact second set of louvers blocked my full view of the assembly. Ratwell didn't disassemble his winders, so he didn't have any details to offer there. At least I'm better informed about the riveting. More things to buy while I can still afford them...

Best possible.
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[dobryan]

[msinabottle]

Due to the stress over my imminent loss of employment, I got all of 3 hours sleep last night, and, friends and neighbors, it shows. Forgive me, I pray, if I am incoherent.

I went back to the hardware store where I'd bought the rivets and the washers--they had plenty more of those Mylar washers, they had all of THREE of those rivets, I have 30 more on order. I have a 3/8 hardened carbide bit and a small drill press to drill the heads off the 12 rivets I have to pull--I should be riveting things back together after Tuesday next.

They also had at that hardware store a slightly larger version of EXACTLY the same window gasket/seal that I destroyed Tuesday, we'll see if the 12' I bought of that will work 'round this pane/pain once I get out the denatured alcohol and Q-tips and get rid of every trace of that #$~%~$% Baby Oil. If not, dobryan, I shall be honored to accept your spare seals on the condition that I can make it up to you in some way--I do have the Wonderful Wall of Pulled Parts, we can talk.

Alas! All else they had at the Hardware store was but 1 of those 1 1/2" x 8' x 1/16th inch pieces of aluminum bar stock. They don't know when they can get more of that, so I'm back to shopping around. Drat.

Went down to Blazer Automotive, my VW Gurus, to tell the story of my woes and seek wisdom. Alas, no spare pulled driver's side rear pane to use as a template for the 'pane' jalousie install, but Larry thinks I'll do just fine with a tracing of the window _in situ_ half through the rubber gasket. I moaned about my lack of lubrication



and Larry delivered a pungent and informed peroration on the stuff that passes for silicon lubricant vs. stuff that is actually silicon lubricant that the boys at Blazer use when they are installing windows and rubber. Having extolled the virtues of the stuff he's using, Wendt, I believe, straight from Der Vaterland, Larry surprised me by selling me a can at his cost and sending me on my way.

Good guys, the guys at Blazer. Larry's thinking of setting his grandson up with his rusty old brown Syncro. If the kid has the brains of a grape, he'll leap at the fine old sled and take nice girls on picnics off the beaten track and sleep out under the stars.

So--I need rivets. I can try the seals. I need aluminum stock. I may soon need a job. I need sleep.

I need more Rye.

Guys (gals, if any), your interest and concern mean scads, I jest with thee not.

I'm going back to watching 'Galaxy High' and trying to get my brain to stop slamming against my skull.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[?Waldo?]

It will all be O.K.

Andrew

[dobryan]

All will be well. Don't fret the details. Good things eventually happen to good people, and you are one of those.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[dobryan]

Hey, msinabottle,

BTW, I've got the passenger rear window just sitting there in my garage attic. I think that I'll trace the outline and send it your way so you'll know what exact shape to make your 'plate'. Can you PM me your address? Or email to dnd.obryan at gmail.com

Best!
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[dobryan]

[msinabottle]

Anyone who fares forth in a Vanagon is an optimist, determined, resourceful, and probably sufficiently crazy to survive.

I'll make it, it's just been an amazing week.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."

[msinabottle]

Note the change of my thread title...

All right--two steps forward, today, one step back. The two steps forward were welcome, at least. I remembered a scrap metal dealership where the people were very nice and helpful, they'd sold me things I'd needed right after our carport partially collapsed during the Blizzard of 2003. I finally found them again when the local Google came up with a picture of the building. The name and address of the place are:

C & M Iron & Metal Co. Inc.
2390 West (Old) Hampden Avenue
Englewood, CO 80110
303-781-7881

The fellow who helped me was Tom French and a nice fellow in the shop. They'll sell you aluminum, if they have it, for $2 a pound. Good price. They let me go through their scrap bins, and very patiently helped me through their sheet metal racks until I found two sheets of 1/16" and a bit of bar stock, which they were glad to sell me, and I was very glad to buy. Came to about $34, as I recall.

I told Tom that I needed to table saw those sheets into the various lengths and widths in that LimboBus article to adapt the jalousies for my Vanagon. He suggested that I get the metal sheared instead, which would lead to a more precise cut and a smoother edge, and when I looked blank, told me to mention his name at:

The Metal Works Company/MPB Alumafab Incorporated
3060 S. Vallejo Street
Englewood, CO 80110
720-877-3500 or 303-761-0567

where I was to tell Mike that Tom sent me, but Mike was on vacation and so a nice and careful fellow named Joshua took charge of me and my aluminum. I explained what I wanted--the metal cut for both jalousies--and he very carefully and patiently ran my sheets and bit of their own metal through a HUGE Atlantic Industrial shear machine, with superb results. He was rather happy that the page from the Limbobus article I'd brought had the 'cut list' on it, and that sped things up. He was curious about the project, but understood quickly when I described it.

I had to pay $30 cash (which meant a quick run to the bank), but I was very pleased with how the cut metal came out--and it looked pretty good when I fitted it to the frames of the windows I have. The cutting took a bit less than an hour.

Tomorrow my friend with the table saw shall undoubtedly be pleased to know that all he's got to do is cut the 'Y' channel off both windows' frames. I also asked Joshua if he'd have any trouble cutting the window frames and the pane holders the way I'd need them for the shortened set for the passenger's side rear, he didn't think they'd have any trouble at all, and they were making complicated things as I watched, such as cast iron balustrades and wrought iron stair railings--it was a nice shop, and we were all singing along when 'Margaritaville' came over the stereo.



After that, of course, came disaster. For my friend to saw the frames, they had to be assembled, and for that to happen, I had to drill out the rivets of the lifters I'd put together the wrong way. The drill bit worked well enough, but the drill press I was using put a lot of strain on the pot metal winders, and then the rivet got stuck in one of them, with THIS tragic result on the upper one:

and

Sigh. Two steps forward, one step back, I LOVE 'Pot Metal.' ANYBODY GOT A TRASHED SET OF JALOUSIES OR JUST THIS PART? Please inform! Because I can't finish the job without a new winder. It has to be THIS winder, the ones on the right side and the ones on the left side are different.

Very frustrating. I can do almost everything BUT this part, right now, I think--I've a promise of a new window seal someone didn't use, for which I again thank that generous person. It would have been nice, since I have the aluminum cut, now, to 'glue up' the frame extensions this weekend--but the new seals have to be in place, and, they aren't.

I did learn one thing--Major Woody was right to use a notched 'real thin pretend credit card' for his rivet spacer instead of the business card I did. I pulled a LOT of cardboard from under the rivets I drilled out, so that wasn't a good idea. I begged an unactivated Ace Hardware card from my hardware store, when asked what I needed it for, I answered'to destroy it,' and they gave me one.

And I am very tired and a little discouraged. Stubborn, though.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."