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pushkick
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: E85 Reply with quote

i just went to fill up my vanagon and what do you know the gas station had a new fuel E85 ethanol 85% ethanol. i wonder if i need any modifications to run this? any one know?
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Perales
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read several times that it is NOT recommended to run ethanol gas in a Vanagon engine. I don't really understand the rational, I'm just passing on what I have read.
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ValleyHappy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No can do....regular gas is E10...I think. Plus our vans would get about 12-14 mpg on the stuff.

E85 it's like "Move along, nothing to see here"

Sounds great, but as long as we build cars the way we do in this country this will never amount to a great alternative.
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can think of two considerations. One, I would expect you would need to change your fuel system hoses including the injector hoses to a material that could hold up to the new fuel. Fairly straightforward. The other could prove more difficult. I don't believe the stock ECU would be happy with the new fuel. It has no automatic way of adjusting for the extra alcohol. You could use the temp sensors to adjust mixture, and manually deal with the engine timing. The problem would be going back and forth between the two types of fuel and the percentage of blend. The tank would never be completely empty. If you had a programmable engine ECU you could tune it. You also would need larger injectors, which are available to handle the new fuel. It would be a lot to stay on top of, but could in my opinion work. You could also burnup the engine if you did not know what you were doing.
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alcohol and gas mixtures are nothing new, I am a big skeptic of the new fuels because I've seen this all happen before, everybody worried about it then forgot and wasted fuel again.
That's why diesel vanagons were only produced for a few years here.
This is from the 81 Vanagon manual:

Gasohol
a mixture of unleaded gasoline and ethanol (ethyl alcohol) known as "Gasohol" is avalable in gas stations in some areas.
Volkswagen vehicals are designed and certified to use gasoline as specified under "fuel suppy". You may decide to use gasohol in your Volkswagen, provided it contains not more then 10% ethanol and the octane requirements for your car are met.
However, we strongly recommend to switch back to gasoline without ethanol, if you experiance the following adverse effects effects on your vehical because of the use of gasohol.
Deterioration of drivability and performance.
Substantially reduced fuel economy
Generation of vapor lock and hot start problems, especially at high altitude or at high tempratures.
Engine malfuction or stalling.
the continued use of gasohol under these conditions may adversely affect the emission control system of your vehical.


E85 is 15% alcohol.
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riceye
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

E85 is 85% ethanol, and 15% gasoline.
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mightyart
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

riceye wrote:
E85 is 85% ethanol, and 15% gasoline.

Yea, what he said
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pushkick
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: e85 Reply with quote

this e 85 was at a meijer gas station kind of like wal marts competitor. first time i have seen e85, ran e10 (10% ethanol) when i was out west no problem just wondering if anyone has tried this in their van? i noticed at the bottom of the forum page here their is some web site to go to for info. i wonder if there is an additive (catylist) to give you higher octane rating.
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm
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ValleyHappy
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a website that list price differences for gas or E85...around the coutry. Obviously, it is more beneficial if you live in the middle part of the country, as the margin for less efficiency of the E85 can be offset by the lower cost per gallon. Not that we can easily run this stuff in our vanagons.

http://www.e85prices.com/
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I was saying was, I believe an engine could be tuned to run on e85 even though it was not designed to. Where it gets difficult is going back and forth when the ratio of ethanol to gasoline keeps changing. Assuming the mix of E85 is spot on in a completely empty tank, that ratio would vary each time you filled up between 85% and 10% depending on if you were filling up with gasoline or E85. On vehicles built for E85 the engine ECU has a sensor to determine the mix and adjusts accordingly.

To poo poo alternate fuel ideas in my opinion only perpetuates our dependence on our enemies for fuel and puts dollars into the pockets of the oil companies. I believe one future for the automobile is alternate renewable fuels. Some may be practical others not so. Biodiesel and E85 are technologies that are available today. These are not some dreamed up future fuels for our Jetson type floating cars. Thank for letting me rant. Cool
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would guess that there would be a way to put rheostats on your AFM to account for the different percentages of alcohol. I assume that you would want longer injector impulses to run alcohol, but I really don't know. All you would need to do is put the correct resistances either in line or in parallel with the resistance strip taps to get close to the needed output and then let you O2 sensor take it form there. A little experimenting with an LM-1 and a couple of rheostats from Radio Shack and you should have it figured out in a few hours. You could work out a map to tell you how to set the rheostats for different mixtures of alcohol.

You might also be able to get the adjustability you want by putting an adjustable FPR on the return side of the original one. You could then up the pressure incrementally as needed for whatever mix you are running.
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daniel5560
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet the engine could be modified to take E85. You'd have to probably play with the wiring and find a way to fool the computer but I bet it could be done.
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funagon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the Bostig conversion you can easily switch from gasoline to E85 and back.
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VWGeorge
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've ran E85 in my Jetta a few times, No problems. I've also ran it in a mix of 3 Gals. E85, 5 Gals. regular to pass Illinois emissions. That trick was in my 73 and 69 Westies. I would not even try it in Our Air-cooled vanagon No way to adjust it on the fly or in the parking lot of the test station. The few times that i used it, I did notice a LARGE lack of power. I did pass emissions and in our 73 it gave me a Valve drop and an expensive engine rebuild. Something to ponder.
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