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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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I am new to this forum, but not to mechanics. Here is the story, I recently picked up an old, complete but tired, Aztec GT. This has a Corvair engine and a rotted bottom. I also came across another kit car, a German Apal, I think. This has the 140 hp engine.
Ok, to the point. My local boneyard has a K-G with a good bottom and disc brakes, any problem with using that chassis under the Aztec? |
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didget69
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Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ghia pan is fine, but you'll have to install Beetle floorpans to make it work -
bnc
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towd
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Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2458
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing is you will need to reshape the front of the pan,, It's wider than a Bug.
you will want to stiffen the pan anyway, by running something like 1 1/2 x 2 1/2" tube around the edge |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I also want IRS would I be better of to just take the K-G front suspension and brakes, then look for an IRS Beetle chassis. I know everything can be converted, just trying not to "learn by doing" anymore than I have to.
Thanks for the responses so far. |
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lostinbaja
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Joined: December 19, 2004
Posts: 4036
Location: Frankfort, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| towd wrote: |
The only thing is you will need to reshape the front of the pan,, It's wider than a Bug.
you will want to stiffen the pan anyway, by running something like 1 1/2 x 2 1/2" tube around the edge |
There is no need to reinforce the pan unless you really want to, it will work fine in stock form. Mine has since early 1968.
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BL3Manx
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Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| Faust wrote: |
I am new to this forum, but not to mechanics. Here is the story, I recently picked up an old, complete but tired, Aztec GT. This has a Corvair engine and a rotted bottom. I also came across another kit car, a German Apal, I think. This has the 140 hp engine.
Ok, to the point. My local boneyard has a K-G with a good bottom and disc brakes, any problem with using that chassis under the Aztec? |
You say the Aztec is sitting on a chassis with a "rotted bottom". If you're saying the floorpans are rusty, then they're fairly easy to replace. I'm not sure whether your Aztec uses a shortened chassis but if it does, and the tunnel is solid, then it makes much much more sense to replace the floorpans on the chassis you already have than buy a Karman Ghia chassis (which you may have to shorten and will have to replace the floorpans on ayway because they are the wrong shape).
I'd try get the 140 hp engine anyway though. |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| BL3Manx wrote: |
| Faust wrote: |
I am new to this forum, but not to mechanics. Here is the story, I recently picked up an old, complete but tired, Aztec GT. This has a Corvair engine and a rotted bottom. I also came across another kit car, a German Apal, I think. This has the 140 hp engine.
Ok, to the point. My local boneyard has a K-G with a good bottom and disc brakes, any problem with using that chassis under the Aztec? |
You say the Aztec is sitting on a chassis with a "rotted bottom". If you're saying the floorpans are rusty, then they're fairly easy to replace.
I think it is just the floorpans. The car is "rough" so I am expecting a full tear down. My local boneyard has about a dozen beetles, I settled on the K-G because of the disc brakes. Then started thinking, I should also go for the IRS.
I'm not sure whether your Aztec uses a shortened chassis but if it does, and the tunnel is solid, then it makes much much more sense to replace the floorpans on the chassis you already have than buy a Karman Ghia chassis (which you may have to shorten and will have to replace the floorpans on ayway because they are the wrong shape).
I found an Aztec manual on the 'Net. It doesn't appear that it has to be shortened.
I'd try get the 140 hp engine anyway though.
I'm taking that. The price is $300 for the whole car. Getting it home is the only problem at the moment.
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Now that I have people's attention. I have seen reference on the 'Net for a "kit" that puts the Corvair engine and transmission in an IRS Vanagon. Will that work in a Beetle chassis? Any real advantage besides not reversing the rotation? |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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I think the last year headlight covers were legal, was 1966. That was when they took them off the XK-E. Too bad, this needs them. To give you an idea of how "rough" it is, here you go:
[/img] |
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CoryN
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Joined: January 24, 2008
Posts: 403
Location: DFW
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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That --it will buff out  |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| BL3Manx wrote: |
| I'd try get the 140 hp engine anyway though. |
That is in this car. I think it is an Apal kit. Don't have a picture of the nose, it is sort of Porsche 917. Being a German kit, and missing a lot of pieces, I'm not too interested in anything but the 140hp engine.
[img]
While we are at it, does anyone recognize this? I think that someone had a Bentley kit in the 80's. That is what this looked like. Kind of like it,but the rear is burned off. An awful lot of fabrication if it wasn't possible to find the pieces:
[/img][img][/img] |
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BL3Manx
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Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| Faust wrote: |
| [Now that I have people's attention. I have seen reference on the 'Net for a "kit" that puts the Corvair engine and transmission in an IRS Vanagon. Will that work in a Beetle chassis? Any real advantage besides not reversing the rotation? |
At Tahoe last year I saw a Corvair engine and transaxle mounted in in a Bounty Hunter dune buggy that was on a shortened IRS beetle chassis. The builder(previous owner) had removed the rear horns from the chassis. The front of the trans was bolted to the torsion housing and the rear of the trans was and basically hung from a tube steel cantilever structure he built under the back seat. The engine wasn't separately supported, just at the bellhousing like a VW. His half axles had Corvair U-joints at the transaxle end and VW CV-joints at the stub axle end, similar to what they use in Type 2/Corvair conversions.
The biggest advantage in not reversing engine rotation is cost savings. Reversing rotation means a full rebuild. If you can use a stock used engine, right off the top you'll save $1000. |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| BL3Manx wrote: |
| Faust wrote: |
| [Now that I have people's attention. I have seen reference on the 'Net for a "kit" that puts the Corvair engine and transmission in an IRS Vanagon. Will that work in a Beetle chassis? Any real advantage besides not reversing the rotation? |
At Tahoe last year I saw a Corvair engine and transaxle mounted in in a Bounty Hunter dune buggy that was on a shortened IRS beetle chassis. The builder(previous owner) had removed the rear horns from the chassis. The front of the trans was bolted to the torsion housing and the rear of the trans was and basically hung from a tube steel cantilever structure he built under the back seat. The engine wasn't separately supported, just at the bellhousing like a VW. His half axles had Corvair U-joints at the transaxle end and VW CV-joints at the stub axle end, similar to what they use in Type 2/Corvair conversions.
The biggest advantage in not reversing engine rotation is cost savings. Reversing rotation means a full rebuild. If you can use a stock used engine, right off the top you'll save $1000. |
My car has all sorts of support stuff going on for the engine, a lot of it hangs out from under the body. I am not sure all of that is necessary. I'll get a better look later.
Here is the site that shows the Corvair installation in a '70 bus. I thought they were all the same under the skin and the kit might work for a Beetle chassis. Since no supplier of the "kit" is named, I emailed the author. No response.
http://www.type2.com/library/enginem/busvair.htm |
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BL3Manx
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Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Transvair used to make kits for it but its been years. Clarks Corvair may still have some of the Transvair U-joint adaptor pieces they used. You'd have to fabricate everything else.
http://www.corvair.com/
then go to
(Otto catalog page 44) |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BL3Manx wrote: |
Transvair used to make kits for it but its been years. Clarks Corvair may still have some of the Transvair U-joint adaptor pieces they used. You'd have to fabricate everything else.
http://www.corvair.com/
then go to
(Otto catalog page 44) |
OK, that looks like most of it. Since they specify "bus axles", I suspect there is a difference. Can they be integrated with a Beetle IRS? |
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BL3Manx
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Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Faust wrote: |
| I think the last year headlight covers were legal, was 1966. That was when they took them off the XK-E. Too bad, this needs them. |
Just about all the new cars have aerodynamic acrylic head light covers now. I think those old sealed beam type headlight requirements have been modified or rescinded with the new headlights they have now.
http://www.infiniti.com/g_sedan/index.html?dcp=23875959;&dcc=0;&dcn=1 |
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didget69
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| Faust wrote: |
| BL3Manx wrote: |
| Faust wrote: |
I am new to this forum, but not to mechanics. Here is the story, I recently picked up an old, complete but tired, Aztec GT. This has a Corvair engine and a rotted bottom. I also came across another kit car, a German Apal, I think. This has the 140 hp engine.
Ok, to the point. My local boneyard has a K-G with a good bottom and disc brakes, any problem with using that chassis under the Aztec? |
You say the Aztec is sitting on a chassis with a "rotted bottom". If you're saying the floorpans are rusty, then they're fairly easy to replace.
I think it is just the floorpans. The car is "rough" so I am expecting a full tear down. My local boneyard has about a dozen beetles, I settled on the K-G because of the disc brakes. Then started thinking, I should also go for the IRS.
I'm not sure whether your Aztec uses a shortened chassis but if it does, and the tunnel is solid, then it makes much much more sense to replace the floorpans on the chassis you already have than buy a Karman Ghia chassis (which you may have to shorten and will have to replace the floorpans on ayway because they are the wrong shape).
I found an Aztec manual on the 'Net. It doesn't appear that it has to be shortened.
I'd try get the 140 hp engine anyway though.
I'm taking that. The price is $300 for the whole car. Getting it home is the only problem at the moment.
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Now that I have people's attention. I have seen reference on the 'Net for a "kit" that puts the Corvair engine and transmission in an IRS Vanagon. Will that work in a Beetle chassis? Any real advantage besides not reversing the rotation? |
Vanagon trans or Corvair trans won't fit Beetle chassis without lots of work... if you haven't tackled a Corvair swap into VW before, it's probably best to stay with VW power. To build the Corvair into a hp powerplant would cost more than building up a good performance Type 1 motor.
As for the headlight covers - covering the sealed beam headlights with any covers are illegal in most states under DOT/NHTSA/etc., regs - Newer cars that have aerodynamic headlights are a world of difference from what the Aztec had - the aero headlights on new cars were designed & approved by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) from the
day the designers first developed them.
That being said, regulations vary from state to state regarding the use of
covers on older headlight setups, like on the Aztec. In MOST states, any type of headlight (or Taillight) covers are illegal for highway use, whether clear or tinted, period. All you need is a LEO to pull you over & cite some law in the books regarding headlight covers & then write you up...
bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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Faust
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| didget69 wrote: |
As for the headlight covers - covering the sealed beam headlights with any covers are illegal in most states under DOT/NHTSA/etc., regs - Newer cars that have aerodynamic headlights are a world of difference from what the Aztec had - the aero headlights on new cars were designed & approved by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) from the
day the designers first developed them.
That being said, regulations vary from state to state regarding the use of
covers on older headlight setups, like on the Aztec. In MOST states, any type of headlight (or Taillight) covers are illegal for highway use, whether clear or tinted, period. All you need is a LEO to pull you over & cite some law in the books regarding headlight covers & then write you up...
bnc |
As with all regulations, I wonder if the cause for their promulgation was real, or imagined. I don't recall any urban myths of people being cut to ribbons by the headlight covers of an XK-E. Possibly it was the "global warming" of it's day. Perhaps it was like the prostitution frenzy around 1915 that gave us the Mann Act, in more than 80 years, there have been less than 20 people charged under it.
I do notice the covers are available aftermarket for the early Datsun Z-cars.
I can readily imagine an LEO deciding I needed a night in the slam. |
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BL3Manx
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Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 6767
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| didget69 wrote: |
[Vanagon trans or Corvair trans won't fit Beetle chassis without lots of work... if you haven't tackled a Corvair swap into VW before, it's probably best to stay with VW power. To build the Corvair into a hp powerplant would cost more than building up a good performance Type 1 motor.
As for the headlight covers - covering the sealed beam headlights with any covers are illegal in most states under DOT/NHTSA/etc., regs - Newer cars that have aerodynamic headlights are a world of difference from what the Aztec had - the aero headlights on new cars were designed & approved by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) from the
day the designers first developed them.
That being said, regulations vary from state to state regarding the use of
covers on older headlight setups, like on the Aztec. In MOST states, any type of headlight (or Taillight) covers are illegal for highway use, whether clear or tinted, period. All you need is a LEO to pull you over & cite some law in the books regarding headlight covers & then write you up...
bnc |
The Corvair is definitely not common or easy engine choice for a buggy anymore. If you're not confident in your design or fabrication skills its probably best to pass it up. However, there's definitely a cool American Iron factor about it hanging out the back of your buggy, and 2.7L and 140, 150 or 180 horsepower from a stock aircooled engine is pretty attractive.
Totally agree that they cost over twice what a Type 1 performance engine would cost to build. But sometimes a deal like this comes along.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=581558
Not sure at all about other states but I've looked through the California vehicle code before and never could find any restriction about clear covers over your headlights.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd12c2a2.htm |
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
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Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia Chassis OK |
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| Faust wrote: |
| didget69 wrote: |
As for the headlight covers - covering the sealed beam headlights with any covers are illegal in most states under DOT/NHTSA/etc., regs - Newer cars that have aerodynamic headlights are a world of difference from what the Aztec had - the aero headlights on new cars were designed & approved by Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) from the
day the designers first developed them.
That being said, regulations vary from state to state regarding the use of
covers on older headlight setups, like on the Aztec. In MOST states, any type of headlight (or Taillight) covers are illegal for highway use, whether clear or tinted, period. All you need is a LEO to pull you over & cite some law in the books regarding headlight covers & then write you up...
bnc |
As with all regulations, I wonder if the cause for their promulgation was real, or imagined. I don't recall any urban myths of people being cut to ribbons by the headlight covers of an XK-E. Possibly it was the "global warming" of it's day. Perhaps it was like the prostitution frenzy around 1915 that gave us the Mann Act, in more than 80 years, there have been less than 20 people charged under it.
I do notice the covers are available aftermarket for the early Datsun Z-cars.
I can readily imagine an LEO deciding I needed a night in the slam. |
funny you mention those. i saw a nice 260 with them today at a gas station near my office.
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