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Larger oil pump on a 1600 motor - yes or no?
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Larger oil pump on a 1600 motor - yes or no? Reply with quote

Hi,

I have a 58 Ghia lowlight, with a 1600 dual port motor from a 72 beetle (I believe). Don't know much about the internals, but I suspect it's pretty stock.

Whenever I drive it at high rpm for a bit (freeway) - as soon as I get to idle at the next stoplight - the oil pressure light starts flickering. A touch on the accelerator pushes the revs up a tad, and it goes away for a sec, then comes back on. The idle speed is normal - not too low. After a cool down, and the next time I drive it - pressure light is off unless I once again drive on the freeway. Oil level is normal, oil is fresh. I don't believe the engine is overheating.

So, am I justified in thinking that I might need a bit more oil pressure, esp at low revs?

I have considered upgrading to a larger oil pump from EMPI (claimed 38% larger gears), and will be putting oil pressure and temp gauges, however...

Are there any possible NEGATIVE side-effects from a larger oil pump on a 1600, mostly stock motor? Is this a good idea, or not?

I do not have an external cooler - just a standard doghouse cooler. No external oil filter.

Am I right in thinking that if there is excess oil pressure by the higher-volume pump (at higher revs) - the oil will simply be returned by the pressure relief passages? Or am I going to develop all sorts of leaks from the stock oil cooler, heads, etc?

any and all help is appreciated.
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Gil G.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

26mm max.
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SkrapMetal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What grade/thickness oil do you use?
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the pump that came out of the engine:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Seems to be a Schadek 21mm, with 8mm stud holes and 15mm oil passages.

It is a dual pressure relief case, and I run Castrol 20W50 oil. Because of the winters up here (it snowed last night, 5th of april - couple of inches of snow on the ground!) - the car doesn't get driven during the winter. I mostly drive it when the outside temp is between 50-100 F (10-50 C).
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SkrapMetal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you swapped your pressure sender with another to see if it's a sender problem? If you do end up changing to a 26mm pump, I would use thinner oil. I use a 26mm on my 1914, and it's more than enough to get the oil where it needs to go. It just seems like that would be overkill on a stocker, to me.
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Last edited by SkrapMetal on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some more reading (I have NO idea how I didn't find these two threads last night - I spent about 2 hours searching)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=244172
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=184585

And as per comment by Gil G. (thanks) - it seems an upgrade to 26mm is the way to go, so I'm thinking of the EMPI one:

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13%2D31%2D2935

(also, that temp range I specified above is supposed to be 10-40C, my conversion from F failed miserably, it seems..)
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did try a different pressure sensor - did the same thing.
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SkrapMetal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jkojouharov wrote:
I did try a different pressure sensor - did the same thing.


Cool. Don't forget to use thinner oil then. A 10w-40 would probably be sufficient.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A new pump might end up being a bandaid fix here; if the bearings are sufficiently worn, the engine will display the oil light syndrome you describe. Try the 26mm pump, and see if it gets better.
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just ordered a 26mm Schadek pump from aircooled.net. Read a few negative comments on the EMPI ones, and most people seem to be happy with the Schadek quality.

Will def blue-print the pump before putting it in - as I saw mentioned on another post - aircooled.net provides instructions on blue-printing. Sounds like having the minimum spacing between the pump cover and the pump does a lot in maintaining pressure at low rpms.

Will make sure to run slightly thinner oil too, as per SkrapMetal's suggestion.

Thanks for all the comments, and I'll update this with the result - hopefully my problem goes away....

ps> The person I got the car from ensured me the motor has less than 2,000 miles on it since a full rebuilt. It looks pretty clean, and the attention to detail that the rest of the car shows leads me to believe he was telling the truth. So hopefully I'm quite far away from a major bottom end rebuild, fingers crossed.
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mkmaxit
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If outside temps are that low and highest being 50F. I'd run 10w-30.
Temps here get up to 95F in summer and I still run 10w-30. From how you explained things in first post sounds like just to thick of an oil. When it comes back to idle oil presure lowers enough with the thicker oil to put light on.
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EZGZ
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

on a dual relief case there is a oil relief on the flywheel side. If the spring is weak or was not replaced or some crudd got left in there???????

Just something else to check. I think the 26mm upgrade is a good idea.

Full flow that puppy as long as your in that deep.
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Blaubus
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes i would check the spring before tearing it down. thats if the new pump doesnt help enough
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did pull out the two pressure relief springs+pistons. The flywheel side spring has a little bit of a bend on it (not a sharp kink, just seems to be a little crooked top to bottom). The piston surfaces look fine. Is there a specific way to tell if those parts are below spec, or the springs weak?

Should I install one of these, just in case, with the new pump:

http://www.jbugs.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9202&Category_Code=

Anyone had good results with the EMPI pressure booster kit?
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is turning into a bit more than I expected. EZGZ's suggestion for full flow got me thinking....

So I looked again this morning, and to my surprise - found a plug already tapped on the outlet pump gallery. Looks like I'm ready for full-flow. Note the open tap on the first photo.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So I changed my order on aircooled.net to include one of these:

http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECO0011&cartid=0406200820263580

(including a plugged up 26mm Schadek pump, removing my previous order for a non-plugged 26mm pump)

The pump will be plugged forcing the oil out of the cover, and through the external filter. However, I have seen some posts and articles saying that the gallery in the BLOCK, on the pump side also needs to be plugged!?

This article has a bunch of useful stuff:

http://huelsmann.us/bugman/FilterTech.html

I really don't want to be taking the motor out, does anyone know if simply plugging the pump itself is sufficient?

Also, the question weather the pressure relief upgrade kits from EMPI are needed still stands - anyone have any good/bad experience with that?
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SRP1
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plugging just the pump will be sufficient, apply a thin coat of sealant around what would be the outlet hole in the case before installing the pump. Do Not use silicone, I recommend anaerobic gasket maker from permatex, or the common permatex aviation sealant will suffice also.
The pressure booster kit is not going to be needed in your application. If you have oil pressure issues at idle after installing the new pump and full flow system work with oil viscosities.
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The full flow oil kit arrived from aircooled.net, and I installed it over the weekend.

It came with:

- 26 schadek oil pump, plugged for full flow.
- empi oil pump cover
- oil-filter mount
- hoses, and fire-braid insulation.

I blue-printed the pump as per the instructions provided by aircooled.net. Rubbing the pump and pump cover face on 150grit sand paper, on glass surface (to ensure flatness).

Oil pump was installed, and secured.

I fabricated a bracked out of some thick steel, so the filter mounts up and away under the rear left hand side of the ghia, using the mounts for the bumper bracket.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I chose the option where the kit comes with couplings, so the houses etc can be disassembled easily.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The hoses were cut to size, with the firebraid installed (orange). Hose clamps on the ends.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I left enough length of the hose so it has some room to move, and also bend in between the exhaust headers, with as much clearance away from the pipes as possible.

Full setup looks like this:

(I did decide to add an extra brace to the filter bracket, which is bent down and rests on the little lip on the under carriage. The result was a solid mount where if I tried to shake the oil-filter loose - the whole car would shake)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now to putting some oil in, cranking it until oil pressure builds up (i saw a suggestion to remove the oil pressure sender, and wait until oil starts coming out of there), before firing up the engine.
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Max Welton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicely done.

Max
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SRP1
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done.
How's it working?
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jkojouharov
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't fired it up yet....

I want to install an oil temperature sender and gauge first, and install my newly purchased air flaps and thermostat in the shroud.

Hopefully I'll get some time tonight
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