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Ever done before? Porsche 924 or 944 engine in Vanagon?
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keithwwalker
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Ever done before? Porsche 924 or 944 engine in Vanagon? Reply with quote

I don't know much about the 944, but remember that the 924 was adapted from an Audi engine, and that the block was canted over at 45 degrees.

Even if it didn't fit the Vanagon, it would definitely fit the doka with the raised engine compartment.

I know there would be issues with the engine rotation, most probably, but that has been handled by other rear engine conversions in the past.

Let me qualify this by saying, that I would never do this conversion, but I have to wonder if someone has.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sure is pretty, and puts cool through the roof.
but,
if you would go pcar, FLAT is where it's at.


...a 928 vanagon would have it's uses in stump pulling and tire smoking fun....
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keithwwalker
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am thinking of all that TORQUE out of the naturally aspirated 3.0 liter engine.

You could laugh at mountain passes - lolz!
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Crughy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweet looking to say the least.

It's 2.0 I4 from Audi according to Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_924

Not that powerful, is it? 110/125hp?

A turbo version was available. 170hp.

JP
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At one time I was pretty excited about the idea of putting a 3.0 944 S2 motor in a Vanagon. You're right, the 45 degree mounting is perfect for a Vanagon and from what I could tell it would fit under the rear lid. There's actually quite a bit of room between the 50 degree diesel VW motor and the top of the lid. The engine variations of the 944 are fascinating:

2.5 8V: 147-158 hp
2.5 16V: 190hp
3.0 16V: 208hp
3.0 16V (varioram): 236hp
2.5 8V turbo: 217- 247hp and with lots of tuning potential


Also, the intake manifold and airbox layout are almost perfect for a Vanagon engine bay. However, when I researched the engines more, it turns out they are quite rough and unrefined. Also, KEP had no interest in making a flywheel and bellhousing adaptor, so I kind of dropped the idea. But, yes, it is an intriguing idea since packaging wise they are a good fit. The motors area also pretty affordable. And there's something cool about having a one of a kind swap.

Incidentally, I wouldn't do a 924 2.0 engine. Those are lame engines derived from the 1969 Audi 100LS. Durable, but unrefined, and with they only make 90-110 hp.

Just think, Keith, you could be the first to do a 944 swap. Very Happy

David
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TSR53
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with you David. It would be a unique swap.

Having owned two Porsche 944s and both were 150 hp, 2.5 litres. They are really strong engines with loads of torque and like to rev. They use Porsche's version of Motronic, so it's not high pressure CIS injection and the ECU runs with timing maps. I think that mine always got good mpgs and ran somewhat clean for older cars. I've autocrossed both of these Porsches. A sweet little jewel of a engine - basically 1/2 of a Porsche 928 engine. Downside is the timing and balance shaft belt maintenance. Needs to be swapped every 20-30k miles. The last version made was the best, the 968, 16v 3.0 litre with 236hp as David noted. Turbo 951 version can be tuned to crazy hp numbers.

The gearbox that my '85 and '87 944s used is the Audi 016 in different forms and gear ratios. Although these will not work, the bolt pattern is the same as most Audi gearboxes. My 1985 had a factory 40% limited slip in it.

If several of the Audi engine swaps done on this board (20v 7A, 5 cyl, and 20v 3B turbo) work to a stock Vanagon bell housing (assuming that's what they've used), why would the Porsche 944 need to have a special adapter if they bolt directly (via the torque tube) to the Audi 016? Possibly, this swap *might* be easier than we think?

ps... the 944 engine image looks like it's one of Albert Broadfoot's race engines. He raced a 951 turbo in the 24hr of Daytona.

My all time favorite race car is the Porsche 924 Carrera GTR that raced in the 1982 Le Mans.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1982/Le_Mans-1982-06-20-084.jpg
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keithwwalker
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come to think of it, didn't the South African Vanagon come with the 5 cylinder Audi engine?

It would be interesting to see if the S.A. bell housing was different from the stock Vanagon housing, and whether the bolt pattern to the engine was the same as the 944/968.

I am kind of split on swapping engines philosophically. I like my doka because it is as simple as a mule - no a/c or power steering (1 belt). And the electronics are simple to work on too.

The main disadvantage is lack of torque.

A 3.0 I-4 from a 90's 944/968 would have a bit more refinement in the electronics/emissions area and I think and would run smooth enough.
~~~~~~~~~~
What is really interesting is that even before the 924 and Audi 100, this engine design had a 'pre-history'.

Back when DKW was still selling two stroke, three cylinder automobiles, Mercedes Benz acquired a controlling interest in the company - as well as the rest of the Auto Union group (NSU).

Mercedes saw the writing on the wall, and developed a I-4 four stroke engine for the last DKW model, the F102.

To differentiate the model from the smoky F102, it was decided to call the new 4s model: Audi/Audi F103/Audi 60/Audi 72.

It was a longitudinal mount (wikipedia has it wrong), front wheel drive - you guessed it - it was canted over at a 45 degree angle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So the Mercedes design, became an Audi design, then a Porsche design, all evolutionary of course.

No wonder Porsche eventually killed this engine family, it was a bastard child from Mercedes!
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TSR53 wrote:
I totally agree with you David. It would be a unique swap.

Having owned two Porsche 944s and both were 150 hp, 2.5 litres. They are really strong engines with loads of torque and like to rev. They use Porsche's version of Motronic, so it's not high pressure CIS injection and the ECU runs with timing maps. I think that mine always got good mpgs and ran somewhat clean for older cars. I've autocrossed both of these Porsches. A sweet little jewel of a engine - basically 1/2 of a Porsche 928 engine. Downside is the timing and balance shaft belt maintenance. Needs to be swapped every 20-30k miles. The last version made was the best, the 968, 16v 3.0 litre with 236hp as David noted. Turbo 951 version can be tuned to crazy hp numbers.

The gearbox that my '85 and '87 944s used is the Audi 016 in different forms and gear ratios. Although these will not work, the bolt pattern is the same as most Audi gearboxes. My 1985 had a factory 40% limited slip in it.

If several of the Audi engine swaps done on this board (20v 7A, 5 cyl, and 20v 3B turbo) work to a stock Vanagon bell housing (assuming that's what they've used), why would the Porsche 944 need to have a special adapter if they bolt directly (via the torque tube) to the Audi 016? Possibly, this swap *might* be easier than we think?

ps... the 944 engine image looks like it's one of Albert Broadfoot's race engines. He raced a 951 turbo in the 24hr of Daytona.

My all time favorite race car is the Porsche 924 Carrera GTR that raced in the 1982 Le Mans.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1982/Le_Mans-1982-06-20-084.jpg


Hey TSR53, good to correspond with you again! Did you ever figure anything out for a brake upgrade using the BIRA setup from your S6?

As far as the bellhousing compatibility goes, yes, the 944 used an 016 trans, but the 944 engine actually is bolted to the front of the torque tube - which has a very different bellhousing of its own. It looks nothing like the standard Audi 016 trans bellhousing that the 5 cylinder Audi engines mated to. I don't think making a custom adaptor is out of the question. It would just be a lot of extra work on an already time consuming one off swap. You could scale all the critical dimensions for the adaptor plate from the Subaru/Vanagon adaptor and then just cut the aluminum plate larger and in the right shape for the 944 block. The flywheel would resemble a KEP Subaru/Vanagon flywheel, but with the center drilled for a 944 crank flange, and with the length of the center hub custom configured to sit the proper distance away from the adaptor plate mounting surface. I think there are probably other machine shops who would be interested in the job.

Take care,

David
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keithwwalker
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew I was missing a fundamental reason why it hasn't been done....

Oh well, you can always have a front wheel drive vanagon if you keep the torque tube and transaxle, lolz!
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TSR53
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yaa David good to chat. Trying out the S6 993tt brake swap? Ahhh bugger, no I skimped out this winter and Jack Frost up here in Vermont won - too cold to work on anything - bit my arse good every time I tried to sit down to do it! So, I just plunked down and ordered a big box last week from the boys in Santa Cruz. Just arrived with some Weitec springs and a 276mm big brake kit in it. I can't barely get the S6 away from my wife anyway - she loves it too much!

Although, while I was looking at a photo of Eric D's caliper adapters, (and older T3 Movit ones) it seems that the S6 C4 ones wouldn't really bolt right on, there needs to be an angle to them?

Ok, back on topic track... I like any engine swap idea and the 944/968 could be a fun project for someone. But, my time now is worth more to me though, fun to discuss options and possiblities.

Ok, I'm one of the guilty guys that feels adding ANY upgraded Porsche stuff onto my T3 is good and makes me feel more like it is more towards *home*. A Porsche 944 engine might be a naturally easy decision and swap to convice me of doing, as I've owned 2 of these and I like how they run, but that idea stops there. Would an Audi 20v turbo 5 cyl be a better solution? I'm on my ninth Audi 5 cyl and LOVE these too. VW engineers in South Africa thought so also and installed at least the 5 cyl 10v non-turbo in the T3, later in the production run. The best engine now for me is the one that works and that I can afford to maintain, operate and replace when the time arises.

Which brings me to the way I feel about my stock 2.1 litre. The more I drive it, the more I like it. Not sure why? Maybe it's the fact that it's still a German boxer engine originally designed by Prof. Porsche himself, or maybe because it led Porsche to go water cooled with the 996 (far fetched-bah?) or it makes me hark back to the days of my 1720cc single throat dual carb 12lb flywheel 1969 Cal look Kafer? or all the times of growing up in my dad's '69 911E? The history! OMG, the history. How long has this engine design been used by Porsche and Volkswagen? It's the essence - yes, that's it! The essence of what makes my T3 Westfalia so kewl to me, I guess. I like it. The original'ness of it. I like the funkyness, the excess maintenance, the old German'ness of it - if there is such a thing? The sound it makes (I'm rambling tonight). Slow, yes. Uber kewl, even more so to me.

Here's a small video of me autocrossing my early 1985 Porsche 944, 2.5 litre, 150hp, just so you know what they sound like. IMO, this engine wouldn't be a good choice because of the ever so often dad'bernette timing belt maintenance and other little oil cooler/coolant mixing issues. And that fact that you'd need to fabricate the mounting adapter and too much tinkering to make it work.

http://gallery.mac.com/studiors#100180/944-sccv-verizon-autocross1-2005&bgcolor=black
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keithwwalker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some photos of the back plate, or would that be the front plate in the Vanagon Wink

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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TSR53
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the recent 944 Cup race from VIR. 2.5 litre engines on full song. They DO have an amazing torque and power band that pulls and like a typical Porsche engine, likes to rev.

Part 1, very, very light rain
http://www.vimeo.com/861114

Part 2, rain
http://www.vimeo.com/877402
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keithwwalker wrote:
Here are some photos of the back plate, or would that be the front plate in the Vanagon Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


that bolt pattern looks mighty close to the diesel bell Shocked
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keithwwalker
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have a diesel or S.A. bell handy and can pull some measurements? This could be interesting!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SA and diesel bells are TOTALLY different. Check it verses any diesel or gas block from the 90's
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="rhpaw"]if you would go pcar, FLAT is where it's at.
quote]

Carrera 3.2, if only I could Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flipside being, a 944S2/968 3.0 naturally aspirated core should cost less than a 3.2 Carrera flat six.

Then you can think about the rebuild cost:

GoWesty 2.5l : $6895

Broadfoot racing 944S2, 968 16 valve : $4,200 (add $1,600 to R&R and Tune)
Transmission adaptation/substitution of course would be extra as well as electronics integration.

3.2 Carrera ???

Did I convince anyone yet? I don't wish to be the guinea pig, lolz....

Yeah, yeah there is always the Subaru flat 4's and 6's, but they don't speak German now do they!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that the 2.0lt Porsche 924 motor uses the same bolt up flange as the old audi inline 5.
Actually it is not too difficult to install a Audi inline 5 in a 924 chassis since they simply bolt up.
If one were to install a 924 engine I would see at the very least the need to use the south african 5 cylinder bellhousing adapter. I have no clue about the rest of the requirements of such a swap. The 924 engine was also used by VW in the LT series vans from the 70's and 80's.

Not sure if Porshe continued to use the same bellhousing in the 944.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know if the porsch 924 head gasket will work with that Auto Union Audi 100LS and head?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have I stumped the samba?
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