Oh no! Kitchen Rust!

[vanagonforever]

I finally dug into the horror show behind my sink and it doesn't look very good.

So now the question is, what next? This is my first Vanagon and I'd like to do a lot with it. I've already started thinking about getting a paint job, replacing the engine with an EJ22, and all sorts of other modifications. Basically I was planning to dump a lot of money into this van over the next several years and I was hoping to get decades of service in return. Seeing this rust however has made me concerned.

My instincts are that considering I was already unhappy with the paint on top of this major rust problem that it might be a good idea to think about another van. On the other hand the engine etc. I'm running now had a lot of quality work done on it over the years by the PO and the van has taken me thousands of miles with almost zero issues. I've also got the van completely stripped right now and that rust is all there is - maybe that's not so bad. Plus, I live in the city, don't have anywhere to put another van, and my wife would NOT be enthuastic about another Vanagon. It would most likely be worth a good bit of extra money to avoid even the concept of owning two Vanagons as far as the home front is concerned.

Also, I don't weld, don't have a shop to weld in, and don't know anybody who can. I'm a mechanical person who will gladly dive in and figure out how to do things but I'm pretty green when it comes to cars. Learning how to do body work appeals to me but without a good space to work in I can't see myself getting very far. I can handle the standard grind it out, slap some POR-15 on it, and do a crappy paint job on it treatment but I'm thinking this needs a panel replacement. I was also thinking that maybe if I had replacement metal in hand and took it to a body shop and asked them to cut my old stuff out and weld in some new then it wouldn't cost much.

Thoughts? Ideas? What would you do?

[Terry Kay]

You pretty much laid out this vehicles demise.
You can't weld, have no place to work on it, and don't want to be Band Aiding the rot, by smearing POR 15 over the cancer.

You have one choice and only because of the parameter's you are limited to.

Cave & pave the holes, and unload.

Because your limited in what you are willing to, or can do--it's time to bail.

You'd have a tough time repairing this bomb hole correct on the street.

OR----you could lighten up the bank account, and actually pay someone that has rot repair experience, and get it done right.

With the looks of this floor/ side panel damage it won't be cheap---
_________________
T.K.

[vanagonforever]

Uggh that's what I was afraid of. When you say not cheap, what exactly does that mean? I could do a few thousand if it means that I won't have to worry about rust for another 20 years.

I'm going to take this to a few shops over the next week or two and see what they bid but I'd like to go in the door with at least an idea of what they would need to do and a ballpark of what something like that would cost. Assuming the frame is solid (hehe always optimistic) then is the correct fix to do what they did over at benplace on that 87? Granted the page with the rust repair was titled "Doing the impossible to save Vans from a certain death... "

Maybe its time to start planting seeds with the wife for a second van.

[Vanagon Nut]

Good idea to get an estimate. And get as accurate an assessment of the rest of the body/frame as you can. This way you'll know what you're up against.

You may be pleasantly surprised. You've already done some of the prep work. Make the area(s) in question as easy to get at and see and ask what you can do to prep the area(s) to help save him time (keep cost lower

Personally, if it were me, IF the body had no more hidden rust surprises, I'd either remove as much surface rust as possible and POR then fiberglass it, OR pop rivet some sheet metal over it. If I was feeling really gung-ho, I'd get my MIG and try that though that's a little much given my lack of skill in the dept! Regardless, I would hold the rust at bay long enough to realize the PO's investment, and get my moneys worth out of the van. Have some fun with it before committing it to Vanagon Parts Heaven.

Circle of life.... circle of life.

Best of luck with your decisions. Not easy I know.

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[morymob]

I f thats all the rust u have & the rest is ok + already stripped down then i would do/have done the rust place shown. This is relatively easy place to get to & can be cut/welded back by someone with reasonable sheet mtl skills. Sections can bent to replace & would more than one piece & still end up with strong perm repair. CANT see any reason to get rid of just because of this area. my 3cts.

[FNGRUVN]

Don't throw in the towel just yet. I had the same rusty kitchen and it cleaned up pretty easy. Here's a picture:

My rust looked pretty bad too. I sand blasted the area really well and made sure I got every little bit of rust out. You could find a body shop or a business that does a lot of sand blasting to do this step for you. I'm sure they could do it for less than a couple hundred dollars. The rest of this project you can do yourself even without a garage. After I got the metal cleaned up I applied a couple coats of Everglass to the inside of the van. It's made by Evercoat. It's a Kevlar reinforced fiberglass body filler. I bought it at a body shop supply store. These guys were very helpful and set me up with everything I needed to paint the entire van.

If you were lucky you ended up with just a few spots where the rust went all the way through. You'll need to fill these spots in with body filler (bondo). This will be done on the outside of the van. I'm sure you can get plenty of info in the "paint and body" forum on the samba.

If I was going to do it again I would have welded in a new section of metal, but I didn't have the welder I have now. It's been a few years since I did the work and it's still rust free(knock on wood).

On a side note, what is it with these vans that causes POs to dent the side panels in front of the rear tires? I notice your van has bondo poking through the dent puller holes in the same area.

[enlitnme28]

That rot is bad, but not that bad.


I would take the advice of the guy who posted just above me.


Ive dealt with rust on my 1973 Land Rover...... Its work, I will say, BUT it is totally do able to deal with. You'd be surprised, POR-15 would put a long stop to that rust if you hit it well.... My advice would be to do it right the first time.... Sand, kill rust, fiberglass, and bondo. Make sure you POR 15 all of the rust though..


The motto here is, Pay me now, or Pay me later.

You can do this work, Im sure.

I would check VERY closely for rust inside the passenger side of the van panel toward the back. Look under the rockers on the outside as well. Ohh and check around window rubbers..... If you bought the van painted (ie with a fresh coat of paint), they couldve been trying to hide something.


Well if you have any more questions PLEASE ask.
_________________
1985 Westfalia 3 owner van
1990 Vanagon GL w/pop top (SOLD)
1973 Land Rover Series 3
1988 Land Rover Defeneder 110 (sold)
1963 Land Rover 109 SW
2014 FJ Cruiser

Im running out of toys.....

[Famous 01]

This'll show you what a full-blown fix involves. Seems like not a very complex repair for a body-shop; they do this kind of stuff routinely. If the rest of the van is sound, I'd consider farming it out to a shop.

http://www.benplace.com/87_dove_blue.htm

-Kent
88 Weekender/Suby 2.2

[photogdave]

My rust is worse than that but that is the only place I have it.
So I'm going to order this panel:
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VNG%2D95%2D57%2D00%2D1
and have a body man clean up the area and weld it in. I had the estimate done and it is not terribly expensive! I'm going to have it done this fall and while all the cabinets are out, do the soundproofing work as seen elsewhere in this forum.
_________________
89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS

My Westy Movies:
photogdave On Vimeo
photogdave On YouTube

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Crughy]

I would say check the whole body. The kitchen is particular to retain humidity and rust. But it's a MD van it seems. NE. Not as bad as in Qc but still, we rarely have rust free bodies in the NE.

This discussion comes up every once in a while. A westy is a major source of investment: lots of gadgets, new paint, new engine, etc.
The best advice is always to start the story with an immaculate rust free body. That's the only thing that can't be changed once it's started. Turning back is not impossible, but costly.

Check Ben's site. Look at all the renovation projects. See which places get most affected by rust. kitchen. seams. battery tray. Underneath the windshield rubber seal. Back right panel. Under passenger side front mat. Utilities port.

Look at the worst vans at Ben's. See if yours is also affected by similar rust pbs.
It's your call to decide if you want to go further with this van. Think about it for a long long time. Get estimates too. Have an idea of how much body work costs. (it gets expensive with prep, paint and all),

Regarding your van. If that's the only rust issue. It's doable easily by a good welder. I would not throw the van out just because of this spot.
It's fridge related. It might not be truly indicative of the rust elsewhere on the van.

Have you seen this one:
I have seen it in person, but it was not finished.
http://www.benplace.com/fabian.htm

Wow! So shiny!!! Everywhere! It's like new! Check the engine too!

I 've never been fan of weekenders but this one looks awesome. Pretty rare, looks nice with the brown/kaki/military color inside.

JP

[fyrgrrl]

Here's the restoration I'm impressed with....http://www.benplace.com/85westy2.htm
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia (manual) - "Van Hildegaard"
1987 Vanagon Westfalia (auto)
1985 Vanagon GL 7-passenger van (auto) - "Blau Frau"
1985 Vanagon GL 7-passenger van (manual) - "Braunkuh"
1998 Subaru Legacy Outback (auto)
2003 Subaru Legacy L wagon (auto)

[Crughy]

Oh yeah.

But that's his own demo van. He spared no expense.
Leather seats and all.

He works well too.

JP

[RicoS]

[ftp2leta]

[tikibus]

Fear not.
To go to a shop and have this done costs coin.
Why not learn some skills?

Looks nasty, but there is good metal there to work with.
Looks like just what i dealt with last year, the O-F factor.

I fully understand the panic and Wow, bear in mind that this is just the beginning of the rust just uncovered. What lurks under the seam sealer on the entire Vanagon will make you shudder.

Best thing is you caught it, in the nick of Time, no less.

My .02's is to get/borrow a Welder (Mig) and start learning.
The skill set just by DIY... priceless. Just look at the pic you posted. Seam rust runs behind the drivers side pillar. Look at the other side, what do you see? Seam rust. Check the Window welds and metal, I forsee nasty, but you can do the work!!!!

Lots of prep. Hours of prep. Just look at the Propane and water outlets.

Here is a good product:
Duraglas.
Fiber mess Fiberglass is a pain, go for Meshed (Cheesecloth).
Love to see what is under the rear heater core and the seam that runs behind it. There are oval rubber plugs just at the lip of the welded plates.
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[Crughy]

[ftp2leta]

[enlitnme28]

You know in my experience with rust, no shop will do the job you yourself would do, and you will pay them a lot more than it will cost to learn and do it yourself.

When I was in my teens I had a 1979 Westfalia (GOD i miss her), and she was rusted pretty bad, so I paid someone to do the rust repair, 2 yrs later it was back.....


So I learned the hard way...

Then I bought a 1973 Land Rover, me and my dad did a frame off restoration, taking the parts we had and making them better. Sure we bought some new stuff, but we figured lets keep it as original as possible and reworked the old pieces, fixed the rust etc etc...


Now I know in some cases rust panels have to be replaced, GUESS what, now is the time to learn..... B/C owning a Vanagon rust happens, just like owning a land rover, OIL stains on the driveway happen.

Im sure there are people out there who will do you right if you have them fix it, its just from my experience, if you do it yourself, your heart is in it and you do it right.
_________________
1985 Westfalia 3 owner van
1990 Vanagon GL w/pop top (SOLD)
1973 Land Rover Series 3
1988 Land Rover Defeneder 110 (sold)
1963 Land Rover 109 SW
2014 FJ Cruiser

Im running out of toys.....

[tikibus]

Right on.
Makes you check your work everyday.

If you messed up, you'll know right quick.
A shop will go, "Didn't see a thing."

A word of knowing: Be ready for the metal to pop and not fit right. That's just the panels just prepped.

You can do it. Trust yourself.
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[forgets]

my rust was just as bad, if not a little worse than what you posted..
got a couple of quotes around the $600 area, but i wanted to see if i could get it lower, so i got the sheetmetal parts, which are pretty cheap, about $50 for the whole outside rocker panel from busdepot.. though i took the time to replace the panel that adjoins it to the rear wheel well as well.

The site benplace.com was of immense help to me, and made me confident that this job wasn't as bad, or as hard as i originally thought it'd be.. however i was in a position like yours, (had the space, but no welding experience) .. so printed out the pictures from benplace and i went to a shop where the welder cut the old panel off and let me sand / grind all the rust off to my hearts content (at his shop).. then he 'glued' the new one on using the sem weld bond also recommended by benplace.. he added back the 'floorpiece' that's rusted out in yours that was in mine as well with a piece of sheetmetal.. he made it look brand new.

i gave it a couple coats inside and out of zinc primer, and he prepped the surfaces for me so i could paint them at home with some paintscratch touch up paint..

all in all came out to $300 in labor for the welder + about $75 in parts + misc paint expenses.. oh, and i hit it with the marine corrosion protectant TK recommends, it's waxy and might dry in a few years, so i'll be touching that up every few years.. but i'm pretty confident the job will last probably a decade or more.

If you end buying another van, word of warning, these things are all pretty much 20+ years old now, so they're all bound to have some rust.. and after getting the job done, i like to think that maybe having that much rust was a bit of a blessing, cause it made me cut it all out rather than por-15'ing it.. which is usually done when it's minor.. leaving the rust there (which is a much more viable option for some who don't have this amount of rust).. At least now i know, as far as the kitchen side of the van is concerned, the rust is ALL gone.


_________________
85' westy 2wd brown outside / tan inside,
gettin' rebuilt from the ground up.