Westfalia Rewire - The Holy Grail - Project Start

82WestyMan · Last edited by 82WestyMan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:11 pm; edited 4 times in total

I was camping last weekend and was lucky enough to be close enough to 'shore power' to have the option to hook-up up to it if I so desired
That got me thinking about all the " Aux Battery / Inverter / Shore Power - Battery Charter / etc" threads I've read over the months and what would be the "Holy Grail" of wiring configurations for my camper...

It should have two modes:
Mode 1 - 12v Battery Power... with one 'Starting-Battery' and one 'Aux Battery' (for the obvious reasons) with perhaps an inverter to run a low watt 110v toy or two (laptop with GPS, low power microwave, battery charger for my camcorder, media player?...). All your onboard 12v accessories (fridge, lights, stereo, etc) running off a dedicated circuit from the Aux Battery. Running the engine in the 12v mode would maintain both batteries naturally
Mode 2 - 110v Shore Power... (this is where it might get interesting...) running in this mode would not only power your 110v receptacles as it does now, it would keep both your batteries charged but it would also supply a continuous 12v source needed for the 12v accessories (since I don't think a normal battery charger could keep up with the amp drain of running multiple 12v accessories)
I have a feeling this type of configuration would require an manual switch somewhere in the system.

The idea being a configuration that would bring the best of both sources together in a fairly seamless system that would allow you the greatest flexibility in your camping location options...

Has it been done before?... and if not... ideas, changes, suggestions?...
_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

markz2004 · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:

I too have been reading the bible as it were. and have been working on a aux battery project.

If I understand what you are saying, I would think you are almost there. "mode 2" is achived by having a trickle charger plugged into the outlet underneath the sink (assuming a full westy) and permanently wired to your aux battery. The outlet in the cabin area could be used for your 110v needs. I suppose you could go from shore power, to the charger, to aux battery, to inverter, but I would defer to other more knowledgable folks.

What would be cool is to have the charger charge both batteries - would a yandina do this?
_________________
87 Westy, 250k GW 2.4 - 2.0 Wink

, 16" wheels

Captain Pike · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject:

120AC v to 12DC v

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Made this little bugger out of a power supply for a bank alarm system. 120 house power converted to 12 V dc. Used an old computer power supply box to make it all fit. 12v fan keeps the box cool and plenty of power to run my internal lights,radio,Sirius radio and trickle charge the spare battery. All at the same time.
_________________
LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current.......................

82WestyMan · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject:

say Bill... wouldn't have a second one of those laying around out the garage would you? ... LOL

and in response to Mark ... I guess the hard part is being able to switch your 12v accessories from drawing off the Aux Batt in Mode 1 and over to Mode 2 and a "110v to 12v" source when you're on shore power... the dedicated 110v "Battery Charger / Maintainer" for both batteries might be a little more difficult too but it shouldn't be impossible

... but none of this sounds like rocket science or quantum physics... just finding the 'tools' and some creativity ...
and the advice of a good electrical engineer or two... hint... hint...
_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

Captain Pike · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject:

I have 3 more Cool

make that 4
_________________
LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current.......................

tencentlife · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject:

Seems like you can boil 82WM's challenge down to two issues:

Routing shore power to the edisons in the van

and

Charging the onboard batteries sufficiently when shore power is patched in.

The first has two basic approaches:

1. Use split edisons, having one receptacle wired to the onboard inverter, and the other to shore power. This requires switching AC loads from one outlet to the other when you want to put them on shore power, and back when it is lacking.

2. Use an automatic transfer switch that routes all onboard AC circuits to the shore power line when that line goes hot. These are used commonly by RV's and offgrid households who have renewable power with gen backup. They automatically patch AC loads to the shore power line when they sense voltage on that line, and back when it goes dead, without interruption.

The second issue is pretty straightforward: simply have an AC battery charger hardwired to the shore power input. It will go hot when shore power is applied, regardless of whether you are using either of the AC approaches above. Whether it can keep up with DC loads while camping is just a matter of using one that has sufficient amp output to match, on average, your daily usage. Using a charger with, say, 10A max output, that can taper down its current as the battery reaches full charge will keep up with intermittent loading on the onboard battery without overcharging.

It isn't necesary to have an AC charger to meet the maximum DC loads. The battery will manage surges and short-term loads that are higher than the charger's output. What matters is that the charger can match the average current consumption over a daily period.

The Yandina will combine two batteries whenever one or the other rises above 13.2V, so it acts as a good automatic charge dispatch unit when either battery may be the one receiving primary charge.
_________________
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

tds3pete · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject:

82WestyMan · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:58 pm Post subject:

ahhh… the Man I was hoping would chime in …
… and the Man I hope to have the opportunity to buy a beer or two for someday …

Since I tend to be ‘old school’, the manual option sounds the best, but I want to make sure I have this right:
Two sets of dedicated receptacles for 110v power - 1 set from Shore Power and 1 set from the 12v powered inverter (just use the appropriate set)
To charge the batteries – Yadima unit to keep the two batteries charged with a switch for input from either alternator or a “110v to 12v” unit (power by shore power)
12v Accessories (fridge, interior camping lights, stereo, etc) – all on a dedicated circuit that can be switched from normal van 12v source or from a shore powered “110v to 12v” unit

Sounds like what I really need to find is a 10 amp ‘small form-factor’ battery charger so I can mount it under the sink and a good 12v to 110v inverter

And come to think of it, I imagine if I look enough, I should be able to find one switch that would handle two separate circuits to do the work of the two switches mentioned above
Then it would just be a matter of switching between the power source I was using

So does the forum have any suggestions / experiences with specific units for the charger and the inverter?...
_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

danfromsyr · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject:

do a search for RV power converters, they take in 110vts, put out 12vts to primary circuts and recharge/maintain the battery also.

ASIs came with one, and I've scavanged some from RVs in the U-pull-its.

also Marine shore power converters. but for $Marine$ money.
_________________

tencentlife · Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject:

82WestyMan · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:35 am Post subject:

Just wanted to make sure I have this right
I've got the Yandima Combiner, a 200w Inverter and a 10 amp Batt Charger/Maintainer on order

_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

tencentlife · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:30 am Post subject:

That'll work.

Just make sure you have fuses to protect load circuits. A single big fuse on the aux battery will protect everything, or you can connect the aux pos to a fuse panel and have individual fuses for each circuit.

Your 200w inverter, which should be able to surge briefly to 400w, would only require a 20A slow-blow (200w/12V=16.66 ; a slow-blow type fuse will let higher amperages pass for several seconds, but blow if amperage above its rating is sustained), or a 35A normal fuse.

But the Yandina can pass 100A at maximum. However, you only have a 90A alternator, perhaps 70A if your older van has the original, and either one can be derated 15-20%, so at 15%, max output of about 75A or 60A, respectively. Of that, some will always go to vehicle operating overhead, and some will always be absorbed by the primary battery, leaving maybe 60% available to pass thru the Yandina to the aux battery under the maximum charge conditions (in the case of a deeply-discharged aux battery).

So, if you wanted to use a single fuse at the aux pos pole, I think you could get away with a 50A normal fuse. Otherwise, run a feeder to a fuse panel and fuse each circuit, including the input from the Yandina (backfed), individually. I would use a 50 or 60 from the Yandina, a 40A for your inverter, and smaller fuses for any other branch circuit loads, like radio lights, etc. If you put the fridge on a circuit. look at its nameplate wattage rating, divide by 12, and round up to the next higher common fuse size. You could also have a backfed 10A fuse from your shore power charger feed.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

82WestyMan · Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:07 am Post subject:

thanx, as always, tencentlife

The idea of the drawing was just to make sure I had the basic routing right
I forgot to mention I also have a 6-gang spade fuse block on order too
My plan was to put inline fuses on each leg of the Yandima.
The "+" of the Aux Batt to the fuse block and separate fuses to all units pulling power from the Aux (inverter, fridge, lights. stereo, etc)

I really have to get my act together on this and a few other things...
I have a 4 wk vacation starting on Jun-7 and want to spend it doing the Nat. Parks, etc in the SW... which will be LONG ways from my trusty garage and normal tools in South Carolina...
(and yes, I do have the AAA premium card in the wallet already... just in case)

The whole idea of the above and a few other items on my 'punch-list' is to have as many options available depending on what 'over-night' options happen along the way
_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

82WestyMan · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject:

Well, the fun begins... decided to bite the bullet and start the project

I went ahead and ordered a charger, and inverter, the Combiner 100, a 6 gang fuse block ... and just this afternoon,
after measuring the space under the driver's seat and talking to the manufacturer about cutting off the posts of a dual terminal deep cycle marine battery,
ordered this battery because it would just fit under the seat without laying it on it's side
http://www.batterymart.com/p-Mega-Crank-Dual-Terminal-AGM-Battery.html
(...and yeah, cutting the posts off voids the warranty)

I did have a couple of questions...
Found this relay in the driver's seat battery compartment
I traced the two red wires without the protected ends over to the fuse on the b-pillar
and the red wire with the proctected end back to the battery positive terminal

First... what's that little blue wire on the relay connected to?...
(ie - what's it do?...)

and Second... what's this connector I found under the seat for?
(not the for hand-brake... that light works...)

_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

vanagonforever · Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject:

I admit that I didn't read the responses already in this thread so I'm sorry if this is redundant but I belive my setup is exactly as you describe. I added a second battery and bought instructions from eBay to get it hooked up to the camper equipment, isolated from the main battery, and charged off the alternator. I then added a 750 watt inverter that I got from Walmart and wired it to the aux battery. After that I bought a 6-2 amp trickle charger from Walmart and plugged it into the under the sink outlet. This setup is ok but I am longing for more. Specifically I don't like the size of my battery under the driver's seat. I don't like that I don't have a way to monitor the charge on the second battery. I also don't like that I can't run the fridge off the aux battery for more than a few minutes. Finally, I've realized I pretty much never camp in places with shore power so recharging the system is a huge pain. So I am in the process of revamping my setup.

Here is my new plan. The main thing I want to do is move everything back to the rear of the van to give me more space and to make everything easier to monitor. Second, I want to prepare for an eventual charge controller for a solar panel on the roof and I want the ability to add multiple batteries. Third I want to have an outlet similar to the existing 110 outlet that would run directly to an inverter (with a fuse of course). I'm leaning towards going ahead and getting a charge controller to deal with piping a trickle charger, solar panel, and alternator into a battery bank and then installing an all new 12 volt lighting and outlet system in the van. I'll also include an inverter and make plugs that would let me plug a standard house outlet into the inverter. The system will also include gages to monitor charge levels and drawn amps. The last thing I'll need to do is figure out how to move the stereo over to this new system but that shouldn't be too hard.

I'm doing all this because way down the road I want to get one of those new fancy 12V fridges that they have over at Westy Ventures. I want the ability to run it non-stop for days. To do that I'm going to need solar and a solid deep-cycle battery.

tencentlife · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject:

82WestyMan · Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject:

Thanx AGAIN, tencentlife...
I have all the parts headed my way for my rewire project (as per your advice)
Just got myself a little relay to do your "No Accessory Position / Use the 'Key-In' Wire / make the stereo play" upgrade while I'm in working on everything else

and as for that beer...
come June 7th, I'm putting the key in the Westy to head out I-40 (first stop Memphis for some Bar-B-Que...)and will be passing thru Albuqueque on my way to my first stop of the Grand Canyon...
it would be my pleasure to buy your that beer, or perhaps dinner as well...
the least I can do to pay back all the great advise and consul you give here
_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

82WestyMan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:32 am Post subject:

Got my 'Combiner 100' and the 400w Inverter, hoping the Batt Charger, Marine DeepCycle AGM bat and fuse block come soon.
While I was at it, decided to go ahead and replace the fan behind the frig with ArcticCooler PC case fan
(way more air flow and MUCH quieter... made a new bracket out of the back of an old pc case I had lying around)
Have plans for 'Circle Yer Wagons' in Sevierville TN next weekend, hope this improves by then ... lol

_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

82WestyMan · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:34 am Post subject:

tencentlife,

well, my battery arrived late yesterday and i'm in the process of fitting it and the compartment under the drivers seat right now.
I've got the top posts off and have been doing a little trimming to ensure i have enough clearance for the side post connections
My plan is to get as much of the wiring in place as possible this weekend so when my charger and fuse block come in, it will just we a matter of doing the finish wiring as per the drawing i had in my post

i had a question about that relay under my drivers seat
since i'm goiing to me moving both the circuits served by that relay off the veh batt and over to the new deep cycle aux batt, do I still need that relay or can i just bypass it and connect those circuits directly to my new fuse block
i was wondering because of that one 'small blue wire' you said went back to the alt.
keeping that in the circuit just seemed odd since the alt that will be charging the veh batt and the aux batt will be completely separate except for then the combiner 100 is functioning

thanx again for all your help
_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine

82WestyMan · Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:54 am Post subject:

Thought I'd post a few pic of fitting the BatteryMart Marine Deep Cycle AGM battery I mentioned above into the compartment under the drivers seat.
I really didn't want to buy a battery that I had to either layover on its side or would be too tall for the compartment
Battery Specs: Capacity: 55 Ah, 750 CCA, Reserve Capacity: 120 Minutes

This shows the 'left/right/ - 'foreward/aft' fit. The rear lip of the compartment should work fine for keeping 'up/down' movement in check and I should be able to put a 4" block on the side and a 3/4" block along the front to keep it from moving around
Note I trimmed the plate behind the seat for better clearance and access to the side terminals

This is the batt with the top posts cut-off (and a few layers of electrical tape covering the cutoffs under the plastic covers that came with the battery
(the hindged cover is just laying there for the moment, I removed it to work on the fitment)

Here's a side view to give a feel for the height fit with the top posts off

_________________
"The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine


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