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udidwht
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

python12456 wrote:
Hello, I’m running a 1835 beetle engine with mechanical magnaspark distributor, 120 Cam, 1 3/8 merged header, dual idf 40 my initial jetting is
52 idle
120 main
200 air
F11 emulsion
Timing is 10at idle and 30 at 3200rpm

After Lbi my wideband reads 13.8-14 at idle
Light throttle at cruise is 16-17
More throttle goes to 12.8-13
Running with main stack pulled light throttle up to 2000 rpm the wideband is
Reading 16-18 and lean popping. I’m ordering idle jets 55 and 57. What other idle jets would you think I should order. Thanks


Elevation?

Current vent size?

You'll need to get a vacuum advance distributor if you wish to run lean cruise AFR's. Mechanical only then shoot for 13:0 - 13:5 across the board as much as possible.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
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python12456
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Elevation is 384. Texas
Current vent size is 28.
Thanks
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

python12456 wrote:
Elevation is 384. Texas
Current vent size is 28.
Thanks


47.5 - 50 idle jet range no more

120 mains

180-190 air corrector jets

F11 tubes

Keep your timing
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1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
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python12456
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

With 52 idles my wideband is reading 16-17 with main stacks out. Then it gets leaner when the mains are supposed to be on. Doesn’t that mean I need larger idles. Running a mechanical distributor?
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

python12456 wrote:
With 52 idles my wideband is reading 16-17 with main stacks out. Then it gets leaner when the mains are supposed to be on. Doesn’t that mean I need larger idles. Running a mechanical distributor?


Which wideband you using?

How certain are you you have 'zero' exhaust/vacuum leak/s?

Fuel pressure?

Mechanical only distributor and you'll shoot for 13:0 - 13:5 or so across the board as much as possible. No lean tuning during cruising.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
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python12456
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Which wideband you using?
Innovate mtx

How certain are you you have 'zero' exhaust/vacuum leak/s?
Pretty sure. I’ve sprayed cleaner around checking for leaks

Fuel pressure?
I’m running a rotary pump from cb that puts out 3 psi at the carbs. I’ve tested that with a gauge

What distributor?
Magnaspark from CB

Would jet doctors added to the idle circuit be causing the need for larger idle jets
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

To me it means your mains are coming in late, so you need to focus on those not the idles. BUT with a cent advance you should be 13:1, so I'd bump the idle jets up first, probably up "5".

python12456 wrote:
With 52 idles my wideband is reading 16-17 with main stacks out. Then it gets leaner when the mains are supposed to be on. Doesn’t that mean I need larger idles. Running a mechanical distributor?

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udidwht
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

python12456 wrote:
Which wideband you using?
Innovate mtx

How certain are you you have 'zero' exhaust/vacuum leak/s?
Pretty sure. I’ve sprayed cleaner around checking for leaks

Fuel pressure?
I’m running a rotary pump from cb that puts out 3 psi at the carbs. I’ve tested that with a gauge

What distributor?
Magnaspark from CB

Would jet doctors added to the idle circuit be causing the need for larger idle jets


Not that I'm aware of (jet Dr's). Figure out why your mains aren't coming in sooner....vent size?
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Eaallred wrote:
You're not "leaning out" at 1/2 throttle.

Jet the engine at wide open throttle only. Do not attempt to jet the engine anywhere else otherwise you'll shoot yourself in the foot when you do go to full throttle.

Full throttle is your worst case scenario. Jet for that, and you'll be fine through the rest of the driving scenario's.

At part throttle, doing a light cruise, 16 to 17:1 on the gauge is normal.

Jet your engine to run at 12.75:1 at Wide open throttle. I put it in third gear and take it from idle all the way up (on a deserted road, or a freeway onramp). Have someone watch the a/f meter and the tach to see when it runs richer or leaner and change the appropriate jet. Up to 2000-2500 rpm is the idle jet, from there, up to 4500-ish is the main, and above that is the air jet.

Jet for full throttle, let it go where it wants everywhere else.

Good luck with the jetting!


Provided he has a vac advance distributor for the light load lean cruise.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

2 things.
IMHO 13-13,5 on cruise is way too rich in just about any case. With mechanical advance only, and in a beetle 14,5 - 15,5 afr is fine. (This is in the top end of the idle circuit) The engine should be onm the idle circuit up to about 60 mph. give or take 3-5 mph dependant on venturies and engine efficiency. If the AFR shows 16-17 at 2000 rpm, but the engine picks up well and goes into the good zoneon cruise, leave it alone.
From the sound of it your float height is too high. Dependant on type of IDF the float height should be between 10 & 11,5 mm. If your IDf´s are from one of the shade tree suppliers the discharge orifices can be in the wronmg location . If that is the case you can jet till the sun goes black and you will never get it right. If not, there is a much better chance that you just need to find the sweet spot.
T
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Alstrup wrote:
2 things.
IMHO 13-13,5 on cruise is way too rich in just about any case. With mechanical advance only, and in a beetle 14,5 - 15,5 afr is fine. (This is in the top end of the idle circuit) The engine should be onm the idle circuit up to about 60 mph. give or take 3-5 mph dependant on venturies and engine efficiency. If the AFR shows 16-17 at 2000 rpm, but the engine picks up well and goes into the good zoneon cruise, leave it alone.
From the sound of it your float height is too high. Dependant on type of IDF the float height should be between 10 & 11,5 mm. If your IDf´s are from one of the shade tree suppliers the discharge orifices can be in the wronmg location . If that is the case you can jet till the sun goes black and you will never get it right. If not, there is a much better chance that you just need to find the sweet spot.
T


Yes, with a slightly cracked pedal up to ~1/4 you're almost surely on the idle circuit even when going north of 60mph. So long as your jetting is in the ballpark. The mains won't kick in until you go beyond roughly 1/4 throttle at what ever given RPM.

This thread NEEDS to be a STICKY.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msoultan wrote:
Ok, I finally got my quad CHT sensors installed and did a run on the freeway. For the first run I ran at around 16.5:1 for my cruise RPM going about 70 down the freeway. On the second run, I ran around 14:1 for my cruise AFR. They both will get pretty hot if I push too hard, but the richer mixture tends to run hotter. In the graphs, sensor 1-4 are the CHT sensors on cylinders 1-4. Load is essentially manifold pressure (full load=100%, decel is around 16%), TP is throttle position, 100 being floored, 0 is pedal up. Let me know if you have any questions or suggestions on how to bring these temps down.

AFR of 16.5:1

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


AFR of 14:1

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In a bus?

Get the centrifugal timing down to 28 degrees full @ 3200+ rpm. You should not be at 32*+ full under full load. A hill climb in a bus = Full load in a bus. The difference in temps from 32* to 28* can be as much as 50+ degrees cooler.

The stock distributors for late year buses ran even lower than 28* BTDC @ 3200 (hose off). But stick with 28* @ 3200+rpm (hose off).

And a stock set up will never run as cool as a non stock set up with something such as a 73 Web cam or Jakes 9550 bus cam combined with 4-1 exhaust.

The stock bus cam and exhaust pretty much allow a bus to run the way they do (heat wise).
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
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sergio carvalho
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Hello friends! This is my first post and I ask for help from everyone.
It is not an air cooled engine, it is a 1.8 golf engine (bore 81mm and crankshaft 86.4mm) and intake valves 38mm and exhaust 33mm.
The case is, I intend to use a (1) weber 40 IDF in a plenum admission.
Petrol 87oct and rate of 9,0: 1
Which venturis would be correct ?, emulsion tube f11 or f7 ?, which injectors?
Maximum turning 6500rpm.
Thank you!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

The watercooled forum is the place for that question IMO.
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sergio carvalho
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Sorry John, I asked for help here because I saw that you understand a lot about weber IDF ....
Just wanted to know how calculations would be to use 1 weber IDF in Plenum manifold for 4 cylinder engine ..., My case would be the right Venturis 24mm for an 1800cc engine? Can you help me?
Thank you.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

I do know the IDF, I don't know your engine at all. Send me a private e-mail, not to clutter up this thread with non-aircooled stuff.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Hello- firstly- thank you. This has taken me from never having jetted, adjusted idle mixture or used AFR to having now been inspired and done all three. I have not yet played with timing but I am off to buy a timing gun today.

Previously had my engine set up on rolling road- can share data graphs and jets if useful.

Recently rebuilt with difference heads and now running in. This means I am tuning up to 3800 rpm to be able to drive it for some miles.

2332cc
JPM MS 250 Heads
JPM Raptor Cam
51 IDA
MSD ignition
Petronix 7mm wires and cap- for colour purposes which I suspect you will say is silly!
Valves set at 3 thou
Timing at 32
NGK D7EA plugs- I think.. its been a while (5 years) since I sent parts to engine builder and got engine back
Innovate LM2

Best set up to date has been:

Idle 70
Holder 130
Main 185 (not used at these rpm?)
Air 190 (as above)
Vents JPM 44
Emulsion F2

Have taken down idles to 65 then 60 and the engine falls on its face at 2600 and 2300 rpm (pinking and stumbling and lean). Tried both with 120 holders but little improvement. The idle was crisp with 65 jets and mixture was the desired 13.2- it just would not move up the rpm range on the road.

With the 70 idle it is rich at idle 11.9. It pulls nicely up to 3800 rpm. Mixture is better at high 13's. I am trying to pull the data off the SD card this morning if that's useful.

My question, given that the thread says avoid rich idle, what do I try next?

When it was on the rolling road they ended up with 80 idles and 160 holders which seem huge and reading this thread suggests that whilst it made good power, there might be a better approach.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

H! wrote:
Hello- firstly- thank you. This has taken me from never having jetted, adjusted idle mixture or used AFR to having now been inspired and done all three. I have not yet played with timing but I am off to buy a timing gun today.

Previously had my engine set up on rolling road- can share data graphs and jets if useful.

Recently rebuilt with difference heads and now running in. This means I am tuning up to 3800 rpm to be able to drive it for some miles.

2332cc
JPM MS 250 Heads
JPM Raptor Cam
51 IDA
MSD ignition
Petronix 7mm wires and cap- for colour purposes which I suspect you will say is silly!
Valves set at 3 thou
Timing at 32
NGK D7EA plugs- I think.. its been a while (5 years) since I sent parts to engine builder and got engine back
Innovate LM2

Best set up to date has been:

Idle 70
Holder 130
Main 185 (not used at these rpm?)
Air 190 (as above)
Vents JPM 44
Emulsion F2

Have taken down idles to 65 then 60 and the engine falls on its face at 2600 and 2300 rpm (pinking and stumbling and lean). Tried both with 120 holders but little improvement. The idle was crisp with 65 jets and mixture was the desired 13.2- it just would not move up the rpm range on the road.

With the 70 idle it is rich at idle 11.9. It pulls nicely up to 3800 rpm. Mixture is better at high 13's. I am trying to pull the data off the SD card this morning if that's useful.

My question, given that the thread says avoid rich idle, what do I try next?

When it was on the rolling road they ended up with 80 idles and 160 holders which seem huge and reading this thread suggests that whilst it made good power, there might be a better approach.

Thanks!


Depending on the size of the cam ,( guessing at the rest of the combination you are using quite a large cam with a lot of valve overlap .)large duration cams cause low idle manifold vacuum which will make the idle mixture harder to get right for a novice because it makes the adjustment a little vague . Forget about the AFR readings at idle , just adjust for the best idle, one cylinder at a time . Driving the car on the progression ports ,(John from AC net has explained numerous times the best method early in this thread)will decide the size of the idle jets .
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Ok John!!, Thanks!!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Wideband Results Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
H! wrote:
Hello- firstly- thank you. This has taken me from never having jetted, adjusted idle mixture or used AFR to having now been inspired and done all three. I have not yet played with timing but I am off to buy a timing gun today.

Previously had my engine set up on rolling road- can share data graphs and jets if useful.

Recently rebuilt with difference heads and now running in. This means I am tuning up to 3800 rpm to be able to drive it for some miles.

2332cc
JPM MS 250 Heads
JPM Raptor Cam
51 IDA
MSD ignition
Petronix 7mm wires and cap- for colour purposes which I suspect you will say is silly!
Valves set at 3 thou
Timing at 32
NGK D7EA plugs- I think.. its been a while (5 years) since I sent parts to engine builder and got engine back
Innovate LM2

Best set up to date has been:

Idle 70
Holder 130
Main 185 (not used at these rpm?)
Air 190 (as above)
Vents JPM 44
Emulsion F2

Have taken down idles to 65 then 60 and the engine falls on its face at 2600 and 2300 rpm (pinking and stumbling and lean). Tried both with 120 holders but little improvement. The idle was crisp with 65 jets and mixture was the desired 13.2- it just would not move up the rpm range on the road.

With the 70 idle it is rich at idle 11.9. It pulls nicely up to 3800 rpm. Mixture is better at high 13's. I am trying to pull the data off the SD card this morning if that's useful.

My question, given that the thread says avoid rich idle, what do I try next?

When it was on the rolling road they ended up with 80 idles and 160 holders which seem huge and reading this thread suggests that whilst it made good power, there might be a better approach.

Thanks!


Depending on the size of the cam ,( guessing at the rest of the combination you are using quite a large cam with a lot of valve overlap .)large duration cams cause low idle manifold vacuum which will make the idle mixture harder to get right for a novice because it makes the adjustment a little vague . Forget about the AFR readings at idle , just adjust for the best idle, one cylinder at a time . Driving the car on the progression ports ,(John from AC net has explained numerous times the best method early in this thread)will decide the size of the idle jets .



wreck at what duration on camshaft do you think the vacuum in the intake manifold will decrease. I have a webcam 86b to go into my 2.2ltr oxyboxer with the new panchittos heads, compression will be 9.6:1 with 48mm dellorto and 1 5/8 inch exhaust manifold.
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