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BIGMIKEY
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2007
Posts: 1105
Location: North East Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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| oprn wrote: |
Looks to me like you have nailed it as far as the carbs go!
The only improvement I would suggest is cut the steps out of the heads, get the deck down to 40 thousands and shoot for between 8.2 and 8.5 C/R. A C/R of 7.0 is pathetic. |
Agreed on the CR. Currently I am accumulating parts for a 2007cc engine for this Bug. So this 1600 is sort of a place holder for that. After my Deserter Buggy project is complete this 1600 might find it's way into that. I will address the CR for sure at that time.
thanks
Mike T
_________________
BIGMIKEY
Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=
1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue. |
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BIGMIKEY
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2007
Posts: 1105
Location: North East Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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Interesting observation this weekend. My normal gas is 87 octane with 10% ethanol. This is the fuel that I ran while tuning up to this point. This weekend I filled with the only non ethanol gas available in the area, 90 octane. My AFR readings are richer now.
Before, with the 87 octane, at light throttle I was seeing 16.4 to 17.0 and 12.5 to 13.1 @ WOT. Now I’m seeing 15.1 – 15.8 light cruise and 11.9 – 12.5 WOT.
I'm thinking this is mainly because of the lack of ethanol. Would the increased octane be a factor? The engine runs no different. Pehaps seeming a bit less peppy... But I only drove it a few miles. No numbers to back it up.
By light cruise I mean 55mph on a flat level road and just enough pedal to keep at steady speed. I put in the non ethanol because I do put the car away for the winter. Brine and salt you know.
Current setup.
1973 beetle 4 speed - 4.125:1 R&P
1600, 7:1 compression ratio
Dellorto 36DRLA on straight manifolds. 1 5/8” velocity stacks
28mm venturis, 118 mains, 52 idles, 180 airs, 9164.2 emulsion, .50 accelerator jet, 150 needle & seats,
floats 6.5mm/13mm
1 3/8” 4 into 1 exhaust with hideaway muffler, stock heat exchangers
SVDA 034 distributor, points, (043 905 205)
Anti pulse valve
Timing 28-30° BTDC hose off, 40° BTDC hose on.
2.5psi fuel pressure
Mike T
_________________
BIGMIKEY
Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=
1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue. |
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John Connolly
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2015
Posts: 48
Location: Sandy, UT
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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Jetting and fuel trims will be different for E-0 and E10, as you just saw.
Typically "2-2.5" on idle jets, and "5" on mains. |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3293
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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| John Connolly wrote: |
Jetting and fuel trims will be different for E-0 and E10, as you just saw.
Typically "2-2.5" on idle jets, and "5" on mains. |
Good to see you back John. 
Brian
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www.type-emotorsports.com |
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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7394
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
| John Connolly wrote: |
Jetting and fuel trims will be different for E-0 and E10, as you just saw.
Typically "2-2.5" on idle jets, and "5" on mains. |
Good to see you back John. =D>
Brian |
I agree with Brian! |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
| Janne71 wrote: |
Hi
What jetting did You end up with? Throw my kads away and put idf 40 vent 28 on it. Going to put new linkage because my kads linkage didn’t work out. Tried it and it’s really a different between them. 30 mpg is really good numbers man. Use VJUR4BR8 AND ITS FABULOUS
//Jan |
47 idles, 200 air, 120 main, 28 ve ts, F11 emulsions.
Might see about dropping to 115 mains.
Haven't had a wideband on it but it feels crisp, doesn't run hot, and gets decent MPG. |
Some follow up to this-
Last weekend I went up to Redding for a funeral- 210 miles each way, did my best to keep the car straight in some absolutely horrendous crosswind for about 80% of the drive each way. I kept my tach at about 3300RPM as best as I could to stay consistent, and much faster was no fun anyway with the wind.
Oil temps never went over 220F~ or so in the grade/hills. Average between fill ups (once before leaving, once before the ride home, and once more when i got home, so it would be ready for work the next day) came to 28.33MPG.
I'm happy with that given the conditions, bet it would have been a bit better if I wasn't fighting the steering wheel the whole time. Even smaller modern cars were having a hard time staying straight.
I think with a drop to 115 on the mains (i feel like I'm on them under load in this sort of situation, definitely took more pedal than without the heavy wind) and maybe a bit more vac advance would get that up a couple MPG in the future.
Not bad for what it is though.
_________________
73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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MikeyM73
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2016
Posts: 506
Location: Napa Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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Nice. As it's jetted and dizzy'd today I can get about 20-21 on the highway @ 65. The plugs are pretty good, I'd just like to get the advanced dialed in. Somehow. 
Mikey
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'73 Pop-top Westy, found sitting in a field for 10+ years, cleaned up, rebuilt furniture, reloved. Original 1.7 block/fully polished crank, 93mm 1.8L balanced AA pistons & cylinders, new 1.8L balanced rods, HAM 42/36 heads, Scat C25 cam & lubalobe lifters, Dual HPMX40s, R2C filters w/ Outerwears pre-filters, functioning thermostat & flaps, Pertronix Flamethrower III, 4-1 exhaust w/ Cherry Bomb 2" turbo muffler & OEM heater boxes, averages about 19-22ish on the highway. |
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Lingwendil
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7219
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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3300 rpm is what, - 65ish mph. 30mpg in a heavy cross wind is not bad. Yes, the engine was most likelty zippin´ from the mains due to higher load, but apparently not much.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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ethanol carries some of its own oxygen molecules so it will always burn leaner. It also has less C molecules so it lacks as much heat when it burns so it pushes the pistons less because of the less expansion. It is more tolerant of ignition mistakes too. Octane is a nice powerful molecule but the word is also used as a standard for how gasoline ignites under pressure.
Ethanol is C2H5OH. So you burn 2 carbon atoms, 5 hydrogen atoms, and complete the burn on an OH.
Octane is C8H18 or also referred to as CH3(CH2)6CH3. With the Octane molecule you burn 3 carbon, and 18 hydrogen.
The Octane rating on the pump does not refer to the actual number of octane molecules in the mix but rather how it responds to pressure and heat.
Sometimes you may hear gasoline called Benzene, which has a formula of C6H6. There are many other molecules in modern fuels.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Steve Arndt
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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Ethanol/Formula
C₂H₆O
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol
| SGKent wrote: |
ethanol carries some of its own oxygen molecules so it will always burn leaner. It also has less C molecules so it lacks as much heat when it burns so it pushes the pistons less because of the less expansion. It is more tolerant of ignition mistakes too. Octane is a nice powerful molecule but the word is also used as a standard for how gasoline ignites under pressure.
Ethanol is C2H5OH. So you burn 2 carbon atoms, 5 hydrogen atoms, and complete the burn on an OH.
Octane is C8H18 or also referred to as CH3(CH2)6CH3. With the Octane molecule you burn 3 carbon, and 18 hydrogen.
The Octane rating on the pump does not refer to the actual number of octane molecules in the mix but rather how it responds to pressure and heat.
Sometimes you may hear gasoline called Benzene, which has a formula of C6H6. There are many other molecules in modern fuels. |
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Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
Ethanol/Formula
C₂H₆O
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol
| SGKent wrote: |
ethanol carries some of its own oxygen molecules so it will always burn leaner. It also has less C molecules so it lacks as much heat when it burns so it pushes the pistons less because of the less expansion. It is more tolerant of ignition mistakes too. Octane is a nice powerful molecule but the word is also used as a standard for how gasoline ignites under pressure.
Ethanol is C2H5OH. So you burn 2 carbon atoms, 5 hydrogen atoms, and complete the burn on an OH.
Octane is C8H18 or also referred to as CH3(CH2)6CH3. With the Octane molecule you burn 3 carbon, and 18 hydrogen.
The Octane rating on the pump does not refer to the actual number of octane molecules in the mix but rather how it responds to pressure and heat.
Sometimes you may hear gasoline called Benzene, which has a formula of C6H6. There are many other molecules in modern fuels. |
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try counting. The C2H5OH can also be expressed as C2H6O but is 5 H tied to 2C and an O and H tied to a C.
vs Octane
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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NJ John
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007
Posts: 2224
Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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I just installed an Autometer analog style Wideband. How long does it take for the sensor to heat up before the gauge reads? This gauge sweeps between 8 and 9 until the sensor is fully heated. Then it reads in real time. So far I ran the engine for a crew minutes and the gauge is still just sweeping.
_________________
1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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Hey John, Was this thing new or used? if used sounds like O2 sensor took a shit  Yea maybe all of 2-3 minutes is all it takes,less then a minute on my new PLX
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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NJ John
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007
Posts: 2224
Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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It was used. I’m guessing Bosch is the best one to get?
I just read on the Autometer site, that I bounce from 8-9 before heated or if it’s getting no signal. I have to double check everything.
_________________
1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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NJ John
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007
Posts: 2224
Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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The gauge did start working on one quick cruise. Actually it was during my first drive with 11lbs of boost. I was busy driving and I could see the needle moving around. My neighbor (a serious drag racer) said I’m safe on the rich side. But, my last ride the gauge never worked. Either the sensor never warmed up or got fouled. Any pointer on proper car and procedure, so I can start tuning?
It’s a blow through, single 40 drla on a mild 1600 with turbo emulation tubes and 160 main and 65 idles. Can I clean the O2 sensor?
_________________
1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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| NJ John wrote: |
The gauge did start working on one quick cruise. Actually it was during my first drive with 11lbs of boost. I was busy driving and I could see the needle moving around. My neighbor (a serious drag racer) said I’m safe on the rich side. But, my last ride the gauge never worked. Either the sensor never warmed up or got fouled. Any pointer on proper car and procedure, so I can start tuning?
It’s a blow through, single 40 drla on a mild 1600 with turbo emulation tubes and 160 main and 65 idles. Can I clean the O2 sensor? |
John,
Where is the Wideband sensor placed?
Too close to the turbo outlet and it may be getting cooked by the hot exhaust.
I haven't finished my build yet. But the wideband sensor is placed at least 6" away from the turbo, in the downward pointing exhaust pipe.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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NJ John
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2007
Posts: 2224
Location: HdG, MD & NJ
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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My outlet pipe is just an elbow. So I figured it was too short. So I put it below the turbo.
_________________
1973 standard, yellow, lowered, 3” narrowed front, 1600 blo-thru turbo w/single dell 15.4@86, so far
11.41 et buggy. Long gone
Let’s go O’s! Let’s go O’s!
https://www.youtube.com/@AirSpooledGarage |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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Let see if the xperts catch it?  
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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John Connolly
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2015
Posts: 48
Location: Sandy, UT
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| Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Wideband Results |
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I saw it immediately, but am gonna wait.
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it's advice. If you don't like it, ignore it. Don't argue.
If you want no-BS technical advice privately, feel free to DM me. Donations appreciated (food gift certificates, etc). |
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