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Avenger build
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Avenger has a tentative new owner. I have agreed to install the motor and title the car.

When I installed the motor last night it became clear that the rear tires are about 1" too wide. I can get some room by trimming the lip but not 1". I could get some narrower tires but then the rears would be narrower then the fronts.

I do have adapters on the back which are about 7/8" thick. Here is a picture of my rear brakes:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I am 99.9% sure they are 914 rear calipers. The rotors slide over a small hub that is drilled and tapped for the standard VW 4 bolt pattern. The hub is attached to the splined shaft on the axle.

Can I get the hubs and rotors re-drilled for the chevy bolt pattern? Would I have to get the holes in the hubs and/or rotors welded shut?

Any other suggestions other then narrower tires or re-drilled hubs? And no...new rims are not an option.
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bob cook
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject: hubs Reply with quote

I would think a machinist could drill hubs and rotors and maybe just have to weld a hole or 2 good luck
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Letterman7
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have them drilled as well. Happened to find this on a weird web search... seemed to be appropriate: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/914_five_lug_conversion/914_five_lug_conversion.htm hmmm... anhd how to do a 914 rear conversion: http://www.airsouls.com/how-tos/rear_discs.htm
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surfnc
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff
If I understand correctly: when you installed the engine the extra weight brought the rear end of the car down and the tire is rubbing the lip of the fender?

If this is the case you could reindex the spring plates to give you some more room. (compensate for engine weight) This will leave you with the chance that when the new owner hits a big bump it will still travel into the fender. You could also (in know this sounds crazy and I will hear about it) add some coil overs in the back. This will allow you to raise the rear and stiffen the ride so that it may only hit the fender when the new owner hits a speed bump too fast. (his fault not yours)
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vince,

A couple of issues with indexing the rear:
1. The way the chassis is built its almost impossible to get the caps off the torsion bars.
2. If I raise it enough it would have too much of a rake. This car looks good low and flat.

There is plenty of room inside the well. Its just grabbing that outter lip. There is also plenty of room before the rim hits anything.

Looks like I will go and see if I can find someone. Wish me luck.

And I head to the RMV on Friday as well.....double luck needed.
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surfnc
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,
Good luck with both of those. I am sure you will find a way.

I have been meaning to say: AWESOME build!!

I hope the buyer recognizes all the work that has gone into that fantastic car he is getting.
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GS guy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,
Saying adapters I take to mean Chevy/Ford pattern rims?
Defnitely tricky with re-drilling for the Chevy/Ford pattern - one hole winds up on top of - but offset slightly - from one of the original VW holes. No way around it.
On my Deserter hubs I drilled the one hole out and had a piece of steel rod welded in to fill the hole - then re-drilled offset. This was with the CB chromoly hubs (as used in their high performance disc brake kit). I talked to another guy that said the CB hubs for the "Porsche" pattern disk kit were drilled Porsche pattern only - not a re-do of some VW pattern hubs. These would be a much simpler re-drill for another 5-lug pattern.

Any chance you could just use the offset wheel stud directly in the VW hub, then re-drill for the other 4 locations and add studs?

Jeff
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,

Yes, those standard aluminum adapters for the chevy pattern that use the offset bolt.

I can't just use that bolt as the round section (which has the thread on one side to thread in the stock hole and then the offset threads for the chevy pattern) would stick out proud on the face of the rotor. No way my wheel would sit flat.

I messed around with the adapters to see if I could get a clean hole for each one and I thought I could but wasn't 100% positive. Thats why I wondered if they (the stock threaded holes) could be welded up then a new pattern drilled and new studs pressed in.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been many years since I've handled that adapter hardware - but I remember something about the offset bolt (just not enough!).
I guess I'm thinking along the lines of offset milling the one hole in the hub - from the back-side - leaving a small amount of lip on the face of the hub. Size the milled hole so the middle round part of the offset stud is a press fit. Then slotting the lip on the front side so the (Chevy bolt circle) stud can come through. Chop off the VW side of the stud - press it in from the back with the new offset stud sticking out the front.
Drill the other holes to match the chevy pattern and press in some new studs.

Seems like it might work?
I just know it's tricky to weld cast iron - like a cut down drum for a hub? Not sure about the T3 hubs - they may be steel? Welding a plug in one hole is really the right way to do it, but can be difficult. That's why I mentioned the CB chromoly hubs - they can be purchased separately and I do believe the Porsche pattern versions have a nice open area in the hub for another 5-bolt pattern of any standard size - though it will need to be machined and spot faced for press in studs.

Keep us posted on what you decide to do Jeff.

Jeff

FWIW - pics of my modified CB hub (Ford 4.5" pattern):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,

Couldn't find those hubs on the CB site. Any direction?

Going to the machine shop in the morning to see what he can do.

RMV today for title.
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK...another question.

Why does my set up use a small hub and a rotor that sits over the hub (very similiar to many current style autos) versus a rotor like this which is 1 piece:

http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/bra...16b371d160

is there a reason why this won't work in lieu of my hub/rotor combo?
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66 Shorty
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It says it works up to '67, you have a newer that '68, with IRS... Maybe that's the difference?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jspbtown wrote:
OK...another question.

Why does my set up use a small hub and a rotor that sits over the hub (very similiar to many current style autos) versus a rotor like this which is 1 piece:

http://www.socalautoparts.com/product_info.php/bra...16b371d160

is there a reason why this won't work in lieu of my hub/rotor combo?


Is that a Type 3 hub? If so, you should be able to swap for a one-piece hub/rotor for a beetle. Fairly sure the Type 3 stuff and beetle stuff is a straight swap, depending on the year of the parts. I'm only looking at your pictures ... you would need to measure to be sure, BUT, From the earlier pic you posted, it looks like you might need the 68-later version. The earlier rotors could work, but you would need to add a spacer to fit the longer splines. Again, you need to measure to make sure of what you have.

The only Type 3 hubs I have seen are 4 lug and wide 5.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jspbtown wrote:
Jeff,

Couldn't find those hubs on the CB site. Any direction?

Going to the machine shop in the morning to see what he can do.

RMV today for title.


Have to call them - that's how I got mine. They're part of their Race Strength read disc brake kit: http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1172

Just the hubs was pretty reasonable when I got mine (must be about 5 years ago now) - $80 each.

Your brakes likely use a T3 rear hub? Haven't seen any "kits" in decades that use the old 914 rear calipers like yours. Could be a custom set-up, or some kind of vintage kit. The CB kit - and looks like yours too - is using standard 914 rear rotors. The rotors are easy to get, and easy for a machine shop to redrill to a different pattern.

I guess getting a set of "rotohub" integral hub and rotors with the Chevy pattern already in them might be an option? May require some mods to the caliper adapters to get the right positioning on a new rotor?

Jeff
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SoCal has the correct rotors for my application that appear to be integral (meaning no separate hub). I am going to take some measurements and send them an email to see where to rotor will fall on my axles.

If I take a straight edge and lay it across the back of the rotor, then measure inside the rotor to the back of my hub and then an overall measurement of the width of my rotor and compare those measurements to the SoCal rotor then that might work.

My machine shop is closed on Saturday so I can't check anything out in that direction until Monday.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the hubs worked out. They look great.

Also got a valid Mass title in the mail today. Not an easy task for sure.

Now I just need to get the motor running right so it can be shipped out. New parts coming on wed.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good news Jeff! Did the integral hub/rotor work out the same dimensionally as your separate hub & rotor?

Be sure to post some pics of the finished set-up!

Cheers,
Jeff
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am STILL stuck on this stupid motor issue. The 1/2 (right side) is not firing at all. I can get the engine running but it rough and after a few minutes the exhaust pipes are cool to the touch.

Here is what I have done:
1. New set (second set) of plug wires
2. New carb (old one did have a vacuum leak)
3. New SVDA dizzy
4. New & different (Bosch) plugs on that side.
5. Tried switching the wires between 1 & 2...no difference.
6. #1 brought to TDC (felt for air pressure and noted notch at the case halves) and aligned the cap & rotor to the #1 plug.
7. Compression is between 140-150 lbs in both cylinders.
8. valve cover on that side removed and valves are opening and closing.

The only thing I can think of is that the SP intake is plugged with garbage. Someone previously suggested that but I just find it so hard to believe. Before I tear it all down does anyone have a different suggestion
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pull rocker shaft and push rods off of the 3/4 side. Then hold the carb wide open and crank it over. If it sucks air through the carb, the intake on the 1/2 side is not plugged.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found the problem.

The metal o-ring gasket on the intake was half in the port and half out of the port. This created a HUGE vacuum leak. New copper gaskets and it runs like a kitten.
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