Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
1938 Kabriolett info
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 19, 20, 21  Next
Jump to:
Forum Index -> Beetle - Split-Window/1938-53 VWs Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:23 am    Post subject: 38 Cabrio Reply with quote

The way I have understood the info on the cornerstone vert is that it was the same one as used by Porsche and that it was the same basic body over a long time period, with periodic upgrades, which included the rear louvers which went from a double row of louvers to a later single row as per the final (more or less) version. In any event the plate remained the same over time. But there is at least one foto of two early verts on an excursion early in the testing trials, the Porsche one and one with a rounded rear shape. I'll have to look at my books and see what I find again and confirm my info.
Yes the Hitler vert was in private hands after the war and was sold more than once if I remember correctly, one of those "abandoned car" syndromes. If you asked the authorities you could get permission to register them and use them.
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:37 am    Post subject: 38 vert Reply with quote

Also note the changes in the steering wheel, 3 different ones A very odd one with two parrallel horizontal bars with the horn in the center, a "standard" thin type 3 prong, and a very early heavy type 3 prong., but all the same plate number. The right dash pods change also over time, A gearshift diagram, a blank pod, and a "VolksRadio' for Hitlers's use. So other changes would be also expected.
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 6:59 am    Post subject: 38 Vert? Reply with quote

Just checked in Seume's book Beetle pp19 There is a pix of a vert without a rear window, but with a double row of louvers and a straight line edge on the top of the rear deck lid. The question is why is that layout still around after the war, Hirst is in the pix and the car was done by Ringel I thought?

And a foto (pp66) inTerry Shuler's book VW KdF- Wagen 1934 - 1945
of two verts on a test run, center is the refurbished V2 vert and the later V303 vert to the left (the Ground break Vert). Note the 42803 plate. The cabrio at the ground breaking is # 42803, shows on several pix one with Hitler in it) This book has a number of pix of each version.

The car with Hitler in it did not have the Banana overiders, rather a heavier pair that all three of the cars there had.
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
usariemen
Samba Member


Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 1745
Location: Germany
usariemen is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2008 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 38 Cabrio Reply with quote

erioco wrote:
..., with periodic upgrades, which included the rear louvers which went from a double row of louvers to a later single row as per the final (more or less) version....


I really do not believe they did such a massive change on a finished car.
The car in the museum was designed by Porsche in Stuttgart and then handmade by coachbuilder Georg Autenrieth in the city of Darmstadt in order of the Porsche team. The story goes that it was then given to Hitler as a present and after war it came however into private hands and was driven up to the mid 50s. Then it had ended on the yard of a VW dealer among other used cars. An employee there asked what kind of vert that might be, because it was differend to the others he knew. His boss said it might be homemade out of a sedan but the employee noticed the air intakes where not the sedan style. So they checked it closer, found out that it was something very early and informed the VW company wich took it for the collection.
By Autehrieth where made twelve more verts until 1943.
The differend styled one from the cornerstone day was maybe made by Reutter wich also had made some of the prototypes for Porsche.
_________________
Master of my domain!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:45 am    Post subject: 38 Vert? Reply with quote

Usariemen,

I think this is an interesting discussion. On the 42803 vert I am not sure of the info I have seen, but on the V2 vert They did do major upgrades that included a whole new front end as they were upgrading from early prototypes to later prototypes. One source says that the V2 vert was an Aluminium body?? but no one else has said so in what I have read. In any event the verts were far more expensive to build, so I could see that they might upgrade 42803 to look more like the final body shape.

Back to the 38 vert in the museum. It does look odd that it has rounded corners on the deck lid because that would require a lot of work and would be a change to a design point that came later. If it is the fromer Hitler vert then the work had to be done later. So the question then is was it done during the war and why, or after the war. If after then they used a later rear clip to repaire what must have been significant dammage of one sort or another.

The next question that comes up is why is there a post war vert at the Plant with the exact same rear end design as the Hitler 42803 car. (Pix in several books with Hirst standing by it) The deck lid has the same straight line and 90 degree corners, and the double row of vents?

Am I correct in saying that the straight lin with 90 degree corners were out during the war? If so they must have found some very early left over parts for or from the 42803 car.

In other words I don't think that you are wrong, I just think that the whole thing might be more complicated. Given the low level of restoration details at VW in the early days of collecting who knows which ones they actually have.
Eric
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
splitjunkie
Samba Member


Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4080

splitjunkie is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: 38 Vert? Reply with quote

erioco wrote:
Usariemen,

Am I correct in saying that the straight lin with 90 degree corners were out during the war? If so they must have found some very early left over parts for or from the 42803 car.


I am pretty sure that the only cars with the square corners were the original batch of vw 38s that were made by Daimler before the factory was built. This would include the original cab at the corner stone cerimony.

It is certainly possible that the museum car is the same car that was modified before it was given to hitler, but the fact remains that there is the picture that I posted of hitler and Ferdinand with a vert that has the exact rear louvers as the one in the museum. It even has the same semaphore switch that has the brown housing and the ivory knob that is visible in the hitler picture. The starter button is configured the same way on the museum car but this is not visible in the old picture.
_________________
Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ninamashr
Samba Member


Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
Ninamashr is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: 38 Vert? Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
erioco wrote:
Usariemen,

Am I correct in saying that the straight lin with 90 degree corners were out during the war? If so they must have found some very early left over parts for or from the 42803 car.


I am pretty sure that the only cars with the square corners were the original batch of vw 38s that were made by Daimler before the factory was built. This would include the original cab at the corner stone cerimony.


Wow, so it seems that there were an original batch of vw38's made by either Daimler or Reutter? So I guess this means that the dash must have been different on the cornerstone vert too? Does anybody have any dash pictures of the cars that were built for the cornerstone ceremony in 1938?
_________________
1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
splitjunkie
Samba Member


Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4080

splitjunkie is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: 38 Vert? Reply with quote

Ninamashr wrote:
Does anybody have any dash pictures of the cars that were built for the cornerstone ceremony in 1938?


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This one has lots of later parts on it but this is how it looks today.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
73sports
Samba Member


Joined: September 26, 2004
Posts: 2107
Location: Warrington, PA
73sports is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm no expert on early cars, but from reading this thread, there seems to be confusion about these cars. All my info is from the Chris Barber book, but he seems to have researched all this thoroughly. Cornerstone cars 801 802 803, the first two being the hard top and the sunroof were scraped after accidents during testing. 803 survived the longest, through the war, and was used by the Porsche family. He does not mention the ultimate fate of that car. There are many pictures of that car in the book, one from the rear with the top up, it had a split rear window, and the unique vents. Hitler did ride in that car, but my impression is that the Hilter car in the museum, is in fact one of a small group of verts made later, and a completely different car from 803, hence all the differences people are pointing out. Look at the picture I mentioned earlier, and you can see the difference.
_________________
I will never lie, but sometimes the truth changes.

Central Jersey VW Society
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Twitter Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ninamashr
Samba Member


Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
Ninamashr is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

73sports wrote:
Okay, I'm no expert on early cars, but from reading this thread, there seems to be confusion about these cars. All my info is from the Chris Barber book, but he seems to have researched all this thoroughly. Cornerstone cars 801 802 803, the first two being the hard top and the sunroof were scraped after accidents during testing. 803 survived the longest, through the war, and was used by the Porsche family. He does not mention the ultimate fate of that car. There are many pictures of that car in the book, one from the rear with the top up, it had a split rear window, and the unique vents. Hitler did ride in that car, but my impression is that the Hilter car in the museum, is in fact one of a small group of verts made later, and a completely different car from 803, hence all the differences people are pointing out. Look at the picture I mentioned earlier, and you can see the difference.


So it had a split window!! That's very good information 73sports, can you post some more pics of the "803" car that are in the book?
_________________
1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
73sports
Samba Member


Joined: September 26, 2004
Posts: 2107
Location: Warrington, PA
73sports is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the rear view of the 803 vert
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a front view
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And here is that picture of Eva Braun driving Hitler's car.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sorry for the not so great quality, but I need a new scanner, and the pictures are not that big in the book, and almost 60 years old.
_________________
I will never lie, but sometimes the truth changes.

Central Jersey VW Society
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Twitter Gallery Classifieds Feedback
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:06 pm    Post subject: 38 Vert Reply with quote

Usariemen, Chris, et al: I have to admit that my old info was wrong

Evidently my last post didn't make it so here goes again


There are three verts in this thread:

1)the V2,

which is not of direct interest to this discussion, used alot by Porsche and updated as new prototypes came up. (probably the source of the rumor that the V2 was the cornerstone car)

2)Vert "803"

the vert at the May 1938 cornerstone laying, with the 42803 plate also driven alot by Porsche and family, the one with two rows of louvers, one on the rear decklid and one above in the body, and a split rear window in the soft top. Retired in Summer 39 with about 10426 Km total . This car survived the war and shows up at the factory in pix of Hirst and other officers, somewhere around 1946, looking in decent shape. (pp 19 Sueume "Volkswagen Beetle Coachbuilts and Cabriolets 1940-1960")

3) the "38" Hitler vert

in the museum, which I agree now is the "Hitler"car, which he recieved on his 50th birthday on 20 April 1939, and which Eva Braun used to drive alot ( page 186, Barber, and pp 101 of Terry Schuler "Volkswagen KdF Wagen 1934 - 1945" both show the same plate #) See also Shuler 102 for a foto of Goring's car made in the same series as Hitler's vert and Ley's vert. (3 verts out of a series of 12.) It looks just like the museum car, so I belive that the museum car is Hitler's car given the very low chassis # of 31. But the car was acually built in early 39 therefor the differences to the actual 38 series, such as single row of louvers, presence of rounded corners on the rear deck lid corners, etc. All 12 cars in that series went to top party people like Hess, Goebels etc.
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis


Last edited by erioco on Wed May 28, 2008 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: 38 verts Reply with quote

73sports,

Your info and mine come from the same book - Barber. didn't mean to put the same info out, I had to rewrite my stuff, lost it in the ether and I'm a slow typer.

Your pix are a great help. I don't have a scanner at this time. I'll try to get pix of the stuff in Shuler's book and post them.
Eric
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

73sports wrote:
Here is the rear view of the 803 vert
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Sorry for the not so great quality, but I need a new scanner, and the pictures are not that big in the book, and almost 60 years old.


A split window convertable? Cool !!!
_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Ninamashr
Samba Member


Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
Ninamashr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another pic of the cornerstone vert. Check out the way the folded top sits over the area where the rear qtr window comes up. I bet you couldn't roll up the rear qtr wind when the top was down.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a pic of the second vert (Hitlers maybe?)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This one I've never seen before, maybe another pic of the hitler vert? the top of the windshield sure looks different. I like this pic because you can see the folding mechanism. It's clear that the 1st break in the top frame is placed directly between the side and rear qtr window instead of halfway over the qtr window like they were done since the 50's. This would explain why the rear overhang was so short.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
erioco
Samba Member


Joined: February 05, 2004
Posts: 382
Location: St. Louis, MO
erioco is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: 38 vert Reply with quote

the latest pic of a vert with scribled writing on it is
not the "Hitler" vert. It is one of the porsche cut
down sedans made during the war. You can see the
rounded sedan windshield top surround and the added
semis high up on the side of the windshield up-right.
"Hitler's" car had the semis mounted externally partially
on the body and sticking up a bit, but not attached to the
windshield. see above Goering's car, also of the series of
12 that the "Hitler" car came from; most were sedans but
at least 3 were verts.
_________________
Radclyffe Roadster Replica proj based on an April 47 chassis
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DDub
Samba Member


Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 306
Location: central pa.
DDub is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Eva Reply with quote

73Sports, in the pic with Eva driving, what is mounted on the hood. Any better/closer pic?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
73sports
Samba Member


Joined: September 26, 2004
Posts: 2107
Location: Warrington, PA
73sports is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe it's one of thoes Notek lights. That picture is from the Birth of the Beetle by Chris Barber. Great book, get a copy if you don't have one.
_________________
I will never lie, but sometimes the truth changes.

Central Jersey VW Society
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Twitter Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Undis
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
Undis is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninamashr wrote:
Here's another pic of the cornerstone vert. Check out the way the folded top sits over the area where the rear qtr window comes up. I bet you couldn't roll up the rear qtr wind when the top was down.


The vert in the VW museum has the quarter windows located on the body by pins and fastened by wingnuts. So they were quite different in design than the later Karmann versions. I presume none of the KdF verts had roll up quarter windows.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Ninamashr
Samba Member


Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
Ninamashr is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another pic of the dash...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Split-Window/1938-53 VWs All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, ... 19, 20, 21  Next
Jump to:
Page 2 of 21

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.