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ranchero
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:46 am    Post subject: Clutch slave question Reply with quote

Scenario: I put in a new Luk clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing to be prudent with my new subaru conversion. All of the previous clutch system was working well before I started 4 weeks ago. I've got everything back together. I've bled lines using wife on the pedal method, vacuum bleeder, backflushing the slave using oil can, etc. Still, the slave cylinder doesn't seem to move the clutch lever enough to fully engage the clutch.

If the engine is running I can't get the transmission in gear. If I switch the engine off, I can then depress the clutch, shift into any gear and then start the engine and drive, but still can't shift.

I was planning on ordering a new slave, and possibly a master. But there are no visible leaks in the lines, slave or master so I'm not sure that any of those are the culprit. This morning I was able to compress the slave cylinder by hand. It took a bit of effort - a solid push upward with my thumb. Should I be able to do that?

Thanks
Steve
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ranchero
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:12 am    Post subject: update.. Reply with quote

So I had my wife push the clutch while I measured the movement of the clutch lever that the slave cylinder actuates. It moves less than 1/2" That doesn't seem like enough. Comments?

Right now I'm thinking I'll just go ahead and order a new slave and master.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch slave question Reply with quote

ranchero wrote:
This morning I was able to compress the slave cylinder by hand. It took a bit of effort - a solid push upward with my thumb. Should I be able to do that?

Thanks
Steve


Sadly, yes! I have been posting on that subject for some time. No one never gave me a good answer, including VW.

I did some test, and i even have a video somewhere (never posted this one) and the release bearing does touch the pressure plate all the time... and the hell with VW design, it's not ok!!! it's not air in the sytem or a bad Master or slave. There is no return system on the slave, on the opposite, there is a srping inside that keep it going down.

I have compared otghjer P-Bearing design with the VW / SACH one.... no difference.

I have seen so many problems related to the R-Bearing. Even some exploded bell housing! How many time i go there (bell housing) and i see a dead / seized bearing.

On my van i have added a early Bus return spring.

Stangly, sometime, on some vans i see the lever all the way up! so i wonder!!!

I will find that video and posted tonight, that video also show the travel distance.

Don't want to bug you but are you sure that the pressure plate is well srewed on the flywheel?

Ben
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject: Re: update.. Reply with quote

ranchero wrote:
So I had my wife push the clutch while I measured the movement of the clutch lever that the slave cylinder actuates. It moves less than 1/2" That doesn't seem like enough. Comments?

Right now I'm thinking I'll just go ahead and order a new slave and master.


At the end, where the ball is, it should move about 2in. A little bit less maybe. Sorry, i'm alone in the shop and it's dificult to be precise.

but 1/2 is far from enough.

Now.... get some big vice grip and try to pry the lever farther than the slave can. That will tell you if the lever / R-Bearing is hitting something inside the bell housing.

Ben
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ranchero
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Ben! I wonder what the total possible travel of the slave is? I can compress it upwards about an inch, and it goes down when the clutch is pressed by about 1/2", so there is at least 1.5" there. The pressure plate is torqued to the flywheel per Bentley specs.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ranchero wrote:
thanks Ben! I wonder what the total possible travel of the slave is? I can compress it upwards about an inch, and it goes down when the clutch is pressed by about 1/2", so there is at least 1.5" there. The pressure plate is torqued to the flywheel per Bentley specs.


Ok, let's go back here.
Let's say we measure that at the end of the lever, after the ball, in front (front is front), it travel about 1 1/4 to 1 1/5. Also, you should be able to push the cylinder by hand all the way up!!! About the same distance.

Also, if the clutch is not press. The lever angle/postion should be pointing at 47 minute on a clock and at about 42 minute when pressed. (kind of funny but i had a watch beside it when i just did the test.)

Ben
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the pedal freeplay before doing any work on the hydraulic systems, brake or clutch. Move the pedal down from its rest position with your hand. You should feel the pedal lever move freely for a bit, and then feel it engage the master cylinder pushrod, and finally feel the cylinder piston begin to be pushed forward. The first phase of movement should be about 1/2" as measured at the lower edge of the pedal. This is true of every clutch or brake hydraulic system in any car.

There has to be free play to be sure the piston is able to return to its back stop fully with every stroke. That is so it exposes the intake port from the reservoir. That lets the system take up or release fluid as needed to correct the working volume of fluid in the system to compensate for wear. It's also to release pressure in the system as fluid heats up from use, not so much in the clutch system but that part is a big deal in the braking system.

There has to be free play, but there can't be too much, as the range of movement of the pedal is limited and you don't want to use it all up taking up slack due to worn linkage parts at the pedal.

Unfortunately, adjusting the clutch pedal freeplay on a Vanagon is a tough sell because there is not the usual allowance of an adjustable pushrod. If there are worn components in the linkage, the best remedy is to replace them. The vanagon clutch system usually suffers from too much slop in the pedal linkage, not too little freeplay. In most cars you can adjust the pushrod length to compensate.

So, it may not be your problem, but you have to start at the beginning. Slop in the pedal linkage will limit the range of movement of the entire system so you can't fully disengage the clutch. Insufficient freeplay will not allow the system to take up fluid to replace air that you bleed out of the system, nor to correct it's volume as components wear. So check that out first.

It is normal to be able to force the slave piston back with your hand. That actually shows that the reservoir port isn't totally blocked, but it could still be partially blocked due to insufficient free play so that as you bleed air from the system, fluid isn't flowing into the master on pedal return. So always check the freeplay first, make sure there is some, but not too much slop in the pedal linkage.
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ranchero
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All,

Thanks for all your comments. My freeplay is about 1/2".

I'm still mystified by this. I've solved my problem, but not sure why I had it to begin with. Installed new slave and master. That improved it - could shift into 3rd and 4th with engine running, but not 1,2,R, or L.

Again, did a wife bleed, vacuum bleed, pressure bleed. no go.

Decided that problem was not enough travel of clutch lever. I found a few nylon bushings that fit into the cup of the pushrod. Problem solved. In the long term, I'll make an adjustable one.

The fixin's for an adjustable pushrod are on the left. The ATE pushrod in the middle and the FTE pushrod on the right. I'll cut the head off one of the allens and shape it into the tapered shape of the other pushrods. Tim on the subaruvanagon list also noted that an acorn nut would work well on the top.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ranchero wrote:
All,

The fixin's for an adjustable pushrod are on the left. The ATE pushrod in the middle and the FTE pushrod on the right. I'll cut the head off one of the allens and shape it into the tapered shape of the other pushrods. Tim on the subaruvanagon list also noted that an acorn nut would work well on the top.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Thanks for that picture> I once made the mistake of putting the ATE pushrod together with the other cylinder. Pushed the pedal down and it was like the pedal hit a piece of steel. I guess it did, the snap ring in the cylinder bore!
I've had at least 8 MT Vanagons and probably put at least one slave cylinder on each. Never had a problem, once I got it bled. The early ones suffer from old deteriorated rubber hoses.
I've found the gravity/ cup of coffee method works as good as any:
1. Reach under the car and crack open the bleed valve and ascertain that the bleed port is dripping.
2. Go back into your house and have a cup of coffee.
3. When your coffee is finished, crawl back under and close the bleeder valve.
4. Top off the brake fluid reservoir.
I'm not joking. (Never tried it with another beverage.)(See the temp gun comments. It takes me at least 20 minutes to enjoy a cup of 135 degree F coffee.)
Al
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Last edited by Alan Brase on Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dr. no
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything come from the adjustable pushrod? I seem to be having the same problem, new master, new slave, new rubber hose, and altogether not pushing the arm down enough to disengage the clutch fully (from :47 to :45 to use the clock anology). I added a spacer, but to no avail, it seems to not push any farther. With a prybar I can wedge the arm to the :42 position and the clutch releases (I know, because it started to roll Shocked ). I've already replaced the slave with another new one (same batch) and would next do the same for the master before pulling the tranny for the clutch job. Any other ideas? Please?
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dr. no
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes, assume that it was bled completely and competantly.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange situation... I just recently switched tranny's, from an 83 manual, to an 85 manual.
Since the tranny was the only thing swapped, and I just put in a new pilot bearing, and TO bearing, even swapped over the new slave, I was surprised that the disengagement point changed. Used to be at about 1/2 the travel of the clutch pedal, but now is less than 1" from the floor.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

levi wrote:
Strange situation... I just recently switched tranny's, from an 83 manual, to an 85 manual.
Since the tranny was the only thing swapped, and I just put in a new pilot bearing, and TO bearing, even swapped over the new slave, I was surprised that the disengagement point changed. Used to be at about 1/2 the travel of the clutch pedal, but now is less than 1" from the floor.

you switched both the slave AND the pushrod?
the other thing is that the fork itself wears where it contacts the throwot bearing, and sometimes the arms break off the forks.
(You should ALWAYS check that wear spot on the fork and re-contour and even them out side to side with a small grinder.)
You can replace $500 worth of parts, but if the fork does not hold the TO bearing parallel to the flywheel surface the clutch will shudder as it engages.
Surprising how few clutch articles mention this.
Thanks to this info from Van Cafe, I now have 3 of the smoothest Vanagon clutches I have ever driven.
Al
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Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
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dr. no
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would that affect how far the arm travels?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

69doublecab wrote:
levi wrote:
Strange situation... I just recently switched tranny's, from an 83 manual, to an 85 manual.
Since the tranny was the only thing swapped, and I just put in a new pilot bearing, and TO bearing, even swapped over the new slave, I was surprised that the disengagement point changed. Used to be at about 1/2 the travel of the clutch pedal, but now is less than 1" from the floor.

you switched both the slave AND the pushrod?
the other thing is that the fork itself wears where it contacts the throwot bearing, and sometimes the arms break off the forks.
(You should ALWAYS check that wear spot on the fork and re-contour and even them out side to side with a small grinder.)
You can replace $500 worth of parts, but if the fork does not hold the TO bearing parallel to the flywheel surface the clutch will shudder as it engages.
Surprising how few clutch articles mention this.
Thanks to this info from Van Cafe, I now have 3 of the smoothest Vanagon clutches I have ever driven.
Al


No, I didn't examine the fork at all. Sad

And yes, I do have the clutch shudders. Rolling Eyes

But as dr.no asks, I'm curious... since the only part not swapped over was the bell housing, what component could account for the radical difference in the engagement point? I had intended to swap over the bell housing too, but the seal was so nice and dry I didn't have the heart to mess with it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this post while searching through the archives and wanted to share my findings.
I had a clutch pedal that was not going all the way to the floor and after a clutch replacedment and some phone calls I still had the same problem. The clutch pedal would stop short of going to the floor by about an inch or better. I found this post and tried putting a spacer in between the cross shaft lever and the end of the slave push rod. That allowed my pedal to go all the way to the floor. Something was wrong either inside the slave or at one time someone used the wrong push rod for the wrong slave. I took the old slave out and found that the slave was a FTE with a ATE rod installed in it. I ordered a new slave (FTE with the correct rod as pictured) and installed it today and everything is back to normal!!
I think because of the shorter rod being used the slave was actually maxing out its throw internaly. It always felt like it was a mechanical stop that was not letting the pedal go any further.
The slave that was in my van was a used slave from a donor van that was used for a big project for my van so other than knowing it worked I had not drove that donor van much to realize that it was faulty.
Thank you Samba for having such a good archive of information and a big thanks to those I PM and phoned to talk shop about this issue. I sure hope this can help others as well.
Tracey








ranchero wrote:
All,

Thanks for all your comments. My freeplay is about 1/2".

I'm still mystified by this. I've solved my problem, but not sure why I had it to begin with. Installed new slave and master. That improved it - could shift into 3rd and 4th with engine running, but not 1,2,R, or L.

Again, did a wife bleed, vacuum bleed, pressure bleed. no go.

Decided that problem was not enough travel of clutch lever. I found a few nylon bushings that fit into the cup of the pushrod. Problem solved. In the long term, I'll make an adjustable one.

The fixin's for an adjustable pushrod are on the left. The ATE pushrod in the middle and the FTE pushrod on the right. I'll cut the head off one of the allens and shape it into the tapered shape of the other pushrods. Tim on the subaruvanagon list also noted that an acorn nut would work well on the top.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tracey wrote:
I found this post while searching through the archives and wanted to share my findings.
I had a clutch pedal that was not going all the way to the floor and after a clutch replacedment and some phone calls I still had the same problem. The clutch pedal would stop short of going to the floor by about an inch or better. I found this post and tried putting a spacer in between the cross shaft lever and the end of the slave push rod. That allowed my pedal to go all the way to the floor. Something was wrong either inside the slave or at one time someone used the wrong push rod for the wrong slave. I took the old slave out and found that the slave was a FTE with a ATE rod installed in it. I ordered a new slave (FTE with the correct rod as pictured) and installed it today and everything is back to normal!!
I think because of the shorter rod being used the slave was actually maxing out its throw internaly. It always felt like it was a mechanical stop that was not letting the pedal go any further.
The slave that was in my van was a used slave from a donor van that was used for a big project for my van so other than knowing it worked I had not drove that donor van much to realize that it was faulty.
Thank you Samba for having such a good archive of information and a big thanks to those I PM and phoned to talk shop about this issue. I sure hope this can help others as well.
Tracey








ranchero wrote:
All,

Thanks for all your comments. My freeplay is about 1/2".

I'm still mystified by this. I've solved my problem, but not sure why I had it to begin with. Installed new slave and master. That improved it - could shift into 3rd and 4th with engine running, but not 1,2,R, or L.

Again, did a wife bleed, vacuum bleed, pressure bleed. no go.

Decided that problem was not enough travel of clutch lever. I found a few nylon bushings that fit into the cup of the pushrod. Problem solved. In the long term, I'll make an adjustable one.

The fixin's for an adjustable pushrod are on the left. The ATE pushrod in the middle and the FTE pushrod on the right. I'll cut the head off one of the allens and shape it into the tapered shape of the other pushrods. Tim on the subaruvanagon list also noted that an acorn nut would work well on the top.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hey Tracey, that's good news! Where did you get the FTE slave cylinder?

Thanks, Jake
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Tracey
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
Tracey wrote:
I found this post while searching through the archives and wanted to share my findings.
I had a clutch pedal that was not going all the way to the floor and after a clutch replacedment and some phone calls I still had the same problem. The clutch pedal would stop short of going to the floor by about an inch or better. I found this post and tried putting a spacer in between the cross shaft lever and the end of the slave push rod. That allowed my pedal to go all the way to the floor. Something was wrong either inside the slave or at one time someone used the wrong push rod for the wrong slave. I took the old slave out and found that the slave was a FTE with a ATE rod installed in it. I ordered a new slave (FTE with the correct rod as pictured) and installed it today and everything is back to normal!!
I think because of the shorter rod being used the slave was actually maxing out its throw internaly. It always felt like it was a mechanical stop that was not letting the pedal go any further.
The slave that was in my van was a used slave from a donor van that was used for a big project for my van so other than knowing it worked I had not drove that donor van much to realize that it was faulty.
Thank you Samba for having such a good archive of information and a big thanks to those I PM and phoned to talk shop about this issue. I sure hope this can help others as well.
Tracey








ranchero wrote:
All,

Thanks for all your comments. My freeplay is about 1/2".

I'm still mystified by this. I've solved my problem, but not sure why I had it to begin with. Installed new slave and master. That improved it - could shift into 3rd and 4th with engine running, but not 1,2,R, or L.

Again, did a wife bleed, vacuum bleed, pressure bleed. no go.

Decided that problem was not enough travel of clutch lever. I found a few nylon bushings that fit into the cup of the pushrod. Problem solved. In the long term, I'll make an adjustable one.

The fixin's for an adjustable pushrod are on the left. The ATE pushrod in the middle and the FTE pushrod on the right. I'll cut the head off one of the allens and shape it into the tapered shape of the other pushrods. Tim on the subaruvanagon list also noted that an acorn nut would work well on the top.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hey Tracey, that's good news! Where did you get the FTE slave cylinder?

Thanks, Jake





Hello Jake!!
I got my new clutch slave from Van Cafe.
They even included the cookies!!
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Hello Jake!!
I got my new clutch slave from Van Cafe. "


Weird - I looked on their site and they only list the ATE...
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'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com


Last edited by Jake de Villiers on Tue May 31, 2011 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jake de Villiers
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Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5199
Location: Crescent Beach, BC
Jake de Villiers is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Steve, could you post the two pushrod lengths for us?

Thanks, Jake
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com
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