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Why gettin' cocky is BAD!
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Why gettin' cocky is BAD! Reply with quote

Okay, so it wasn't relly getting cocky as much as just ignoring my own advice.

Here's the short story.

I had a set of Mercedes CLK320 16x7 ET37 wheels with a set of Toyo Open Country A/T 225/70/16s mounted. I had been meaning to install these on my other 2wd T3 but had not done so until yesterday. I keep hearing about all these people who have supposedly mounted these same wheels onto their 2wd's without using any spacers and have no troubles. I always advise people who are using 16x7 ET37 wheels to add a 7mm spacer due to the tight clearance between the tire and the upper control arm.

Ignoring my own advice, I installed the front wheels with no spacers and in fact it did look like I was going to have enough clearance between the front tires and the upper control arm. I thought that maybe I had been giving out less than accurate advise. However, during my test drive, I kept hearing a slight clicking when turning sharply to the right.

Back at home, I looked to see what was hitting. It turned out to be the clip on wheel weight hitting the front upright. What was much worse though was the 2.5mm deep groove the upper control arm had cut into my front tires. DOH!! I guess I didn't have enough clearance!

Here's the mess.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That picture is with the suspension at full droop. You can see how when the upper control arm swings up, it makes contact with the tire. Proper spacers cured the problem, but jeez do I feel dumb. Hopefully people can learn from my mistakes.

I like the wheel/tire combination though. 28.4" diameter, stock suspension height, no rubbing.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paintedbus
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

those look proportional to the vanagon. Wink

not that i have any $$ to do so, but at some point i want to upgrade to a larger wheel/ tire on my 87 westy. i know its the current trend to size up that sort of thing and that vw used 14" wheels for a reason, but when left stock vanagons look goofy. imo.

your vanagon looks good, bummer about the rubbing...
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is the van a 2wd or syncro? Won't a syncro accept this combo without spacers? I want to put those rims on my syncro with 225/75/16 BFG's but I really don't want spacers.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that it is a 2wd. You won't need spacers on a Syncro. Now edited!

Ken, I like this size on there too. Not too big, not too small. Stock Vanagons, especially Syncros, always look like a big dude with tiny feet.
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240Gordy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks a puzzle to me, shouldn't the tire and the upright/control arm assembly go up and down together and not come into contact?

???????
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pivot point of the ball joint is inboard a fair bit from the end of the control arm.

Put the tips of your two index fingers together at a 90 angle move one hand/finger up and down. The pivot point is right at the tips of your fingers so the entire hand finger moves up or down.

Now the tip of one index finger at the first joint of your other index finger. Move the joint finger up and down. See how the tip of the joint finger move up as the rest of the hand/finger moves down?

Same thing on the control arm. It's kind of like a really lopsided see-saw.
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you
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris, sorry bout your luck but im glad you started a thread regarding these wheels...i just scored a set and am in the process of picking out tires.....i was hoping to use either a 195 or 205 tire but continental states that the recommended rim widths for those sizes are 5-6 and 5-6.5 iirc....would i be able to get away with either or is that asking for trouble
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

Those photos hurt, sorry to see that.

A couple of things. Don't most people have either 215 or 205 on their wheels? At 225, you're a good 5 to 10 mm wider on each side from that. Could that be the difference? It couldn't be the suspension that makes the difference. Maybe your camber is right and others are too straight up and down? Although that shouldn't make a difference either.

On another note, what is your height from centerline of the wheel to the top of the wheel well? I need new tires and was just discussing at the SoCal get together that with 16 inch wheels I can't go to a 70 or 75 series tire as it would be too tall. I thought the rule of thumb for a stock 1.9 is not to go above a 27 inch tire or risk losing what little power we have driving around town or climbing hills.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you wrote:
.....i was hoping to use either a 195 or 205 tire but continental states that the recommended rim widths for those sizes are 5-6 and 5-6.5 iirc....would i be able to get away with either or is that asking for trouble


A 225 on a 7" wheel is no problem at all. All tire manufacturers have their own "recommendations" as to what width wheels their tires are most likely going to be mounted. It is not a hard and fast rule, simply a recommendation. If you start browsing various tire manufacturers spec sheets, you will see tire size versus wheel width recommendations all over the board, even within the same manufacturers tire lines. I say don't worry about it!

floggingmolly wrote:
A couple of things. Don't most people have either 215 or 205 on their wheels? At 225, you're a good 5 to 10 mm wider on each side from that. Could that be the difference? It couldn't be the suspension that makes the difference. Maybe your camber is right and others are too straight up and down? Although that shouldn't make a difference either.


And herein lies my mistake. About a year ago I test fit a set of 16x7 ET37 (spacers included) wheels with 205/55/16's. The tires rubbed on the upper control arms. When I installed my own 16x7 ET37 wheels with the 225s and saw that it looked like I was going to have enough clearance, I assumed that the additional clearance was due to the taller sidewall profile which placed the widest portion of the tire further away from the upper control arm. Where I really went wrong was not taking enough care in making sure that I had enough clearance, regardless of past experiences.

floggingmolly wrote:
what is your height from centerline of the wheel to the top of the wheel well? I need new tires and was just discussing at the SoCal get together that with 16 inch wheels I can't go to a 70 or 75 series tire as it would be too tall. I thought the rule of thumb for a stock 1.9 is not to go above a 27 inch tire or risk losing what little power we have driving around town or climbing hills.


At the front, I'm at 426mm (16 25/32). There is a slight difference in how it drives and which gear I end up in for which hills. So far I don't mind it at all. In fact, there are some areas where I like it more. The taller tires extend second gear just enough that I don't have to go back and forth between the two quite as much. I've always been one to push my engine pretty hard. I have no problem running my engines at full song for extended periods of time and never lug them down. I don't have a tach in my vans so I use the rev limiter as my shift indicator. Actually, I seldom have the rev limiter cut in because I'm in tune with the engine enough to shift by ear/feel just before the limiter kicks in. My point is that I never lug the engine down and would rather drive up a hill with the engine singing than keep shifting between gears.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loogy wrote:
floggingmolly wrote:
what is your height from centerline of the wheel to the top of the wheel well? I need new tires and was just discussing at the SoCal get together that with 16 inch wheels I can't go to a 70 or 75 series tire as it would be too tall. I thought the rule of thumb for a stock 1.9 is not to go above a 27 inch tire or risk losing what little power we have driving around town or climbing hills.


At the front, I'm at 426mm (16 25/32). There is a slight difference in how it drives and which gear I end up in for which hills. So far I don't mind it at all. In fact, there are some areas where I like it more. The taller tires extend second gear just enough that I don't have to go back and forth between the two quite as much. I've always been one to push my engine pretty hard. I have no problem running my engines at full song for extended periods of time and never lug them down. I don't have a tach in my vans so I use the rev limiter as my shift indicator. Actually, I seldom have the rev limiter cut in because I'm in tune with the engine enough to shift by ear/feel just before the limiter kicks in. My point is that I never lug the engine down and would rather drive up a hill with the engine singing than keep shifting between gears.


Again, I blame it on too much tea.

I should really clarify that the actual wheel offset and width will play a major role in whether or not you have enough clearance.

Low offsets and/or wider wheels increase the chance that the tires will rub on the front and back of the front wheel well opening. It's sometimes tough to compare apples to apples.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you start browsing various tire manufacturers spec sheets, you will see tire size versus wheel width recommendations all over the board, even within the same manufacturers tire lines


thats exactly what i was noticing and the tire guys ive been talkin to around here have been less than knowledgeable....thanks for confirmin my suspicions- sean
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loogy wrote:
Again, I blame it on too much tea.

I should really clarify that the actual wheel offset and width will play a major role in whether or not you have enough clearance.

Low offsets and/or wider wheels increase the chance that the tires will rub on the front and back of the front wheel well opening. It's sometimes tough to compare apples to apples.


And in your defense, you have pointed out that tires are different in how they bow out above the rim line. I guess we all fall into that circumstance where we know so much about a topic we get complacent about really ground truthing what we think we know for sure. I'm just glad you brought it to our attention and showed it happens to all of us!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just fixing the dead picture in the first post.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's like a confessional!

I've made worse mistakes, but I don't want to SHARE them!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corwyn wrote:
It's like a confessional!

I've made worse mistakes, but I don't want to SHARE them!


For this and many more reasons I really respect Chris.
It takes big b#$%s to admit and post when we screw up.
In this case the wheels work so well on Syncros that I have never actually mounted them on a 2wd.
I have a set put aside for a 2wd lift project coming up.....I am so happy this post is around!

Thanks Chris.

dylan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided it was a 2WD because of the location of the fuel filler. Do any Syncros have the fuel input there? (still learning so I ask).

I think it is wonderful that someone (specifically in the business) admits mistakes because we all learn and we most likely remember the lesson more. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy I bet that smelled good Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All in all how was the ride with all that rubber?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I spent the dough for the spacers from Chris!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have similar wheel size with 205 70 R16 tires on my 85 Westy...leaves about 3-4 mm clearance at upper control arm. I think this is the biggest tire for this wheel without using spacers.
Nat

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