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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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So you have, sorry wasn't try to be a dick. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| mightyart wrote: |
The tire debate is really about two things, people not wanting to spend the extra money on the right tires, or trying to justify keeping the tires they just bought.
If you have mushy passenger tires on your van it is costing you alot more in gas then you would be saving on tires these days. |
I don't agree with this at all. Most of the passenger tires I have bought for my vans over the years were quite expensive, typically the top quality tire that I could buy locally. When the OEM set of Michelin passenger tires on my van worn out I initially tried truck tires, but the results were dismal, erratic handling and very poor tread life, just down right dangerous IMHO. Any claim that truck tires give better gas mileage is also just plain false to the best of my knowledge, if anything the opposite has proven true in my experience.
The Samba tire debate to me is pretty stupid. Quality passenger tires have run on Vanagons, Bays, and Spittys for years with very little problem. Cheap tires whether passenger or truck do give problems, though I can't remember ever seening a VW van in wrecking yards that ended up there because of a blown passenger tire. The one shown earlier in this tread had 185R14 6 ply truck tires installed IIRC, just what VW recommended so what does that prove. Maybe that truck tires are unsafe and you should run anything but?
Where did the supposed required load rating of 1540# come from? I have never seen that number in any VW/Bentley publication. As far as I can tell someone just pulled it out of the hat. A stiffer tire helps especially on a Bay with its wimpy front suspension, but I haven't found that stiffness improves the handling on a Vanagon in fact I think it causes poorer cornering as the tire doesn't keep its tread as flat against the road. Personally I am not super satisfied with the Hankooks I now have on my 83 1/2. I have had to spend a lot of time trying to get the air pressure set right to keep it stable, I find that it must be adjusted whenever I change the load by more than 500 lbs, something that I didn't experience with the P metric that had been on there previously. Those I could just set at 44 psi and forget.
People especially don't understand radial tire construction. If you want to keep your tread flat against the road and to have minimum tread squirm you need a sidewall that will flex. Back in the days of bias tires you could buy tires with 4, 6, 8, or 10 plys in the side walls, but bending all those heavy ply took a lot of energy, generated a lot of heat and the tires wore out quickly. Going to fewer and softer sidewall plies has been one of the greatest improvements in tire safely, handling, life, and lessened rolling resistance, to say or imply that 2 ply sidewall are bad it just untrue. |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: |
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If you are going to spend the extra money on tires why not just get the right ones?
Fuel economy, see the third one down on this site:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/maintain.shtml
If your tires are only recommended for 35psi max you can't meet the manufactures minimum requirements for tires. |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| mightyart wrote: |
If you are going to spend the extra money on tires why not just get the right ones?
Fuel economy, see the third one down on this site:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/maintain.shtml
If your tires are only recommended for 35psi max you can't meet the manufactures minimum requirements for tires. |
..Why not get the right ones you ask??...Because we can't.....even Busdepot's site reads that the bus/vanagon tire of old was an entirely different tire from today..."Personnally speaking" I would not place all my trust on a tire that has truck like side walls that was not orginally designed for a vanagon just to give up wet weather road and brake handleing, not to mention the poor snow capabilties even in light snowy conditions...generally speaking true truck tires need alot of weight sitting on them to get the most from them, espcially in wet conditions...even the newer version of the "15" aglis" is recommended for vehicles with a GWR of 2.8Tons/5600lbs...(my syncro comes in at 3700 lbs)..even michelin has improved the '"stopping" abilities of this tire, but you still need the "tonage" to make it work as designed too
Last edited by Petervw on Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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I, as well as others on this board seem to have found tires that meet the minimum requirements, and I said fuel economy nothing else.
I think it's funny that nobody questions other specs. like timing or spark plug gap and the like, but some think VW put the sticker on the door for shits and grins or something. |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Maybe that truck tires are unsafe and you should run anything but?
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...You got me thinking, ... at what point do they become unsafe??...perhaps someone else can answer that useing my example...if I was to use a 205/65/15"/1875max load @ 54psi...but I want to maintain the recommended tire pressure of my vanagon at 36F/42R...my question is this,... by how much would the load rating "decrease too" when useing the rec. 36psi on the front...would the tire now be considered "underinflated" and "under load capacity"
Last edited by Petervw on Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:42 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| mightyart wrote: |
If your tires are only recommended for 35psi max you can't meet the manufactures minimum requirements for tires. |
Show me one place where VW says this. A tire with a wider foot print and softer sidewalls may need less pressure, this is not rocket science. Stiffer tires with heavier sidewalls need more air so they don't damage themselves from from the heat buildup do to flexing. |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| mightyart wrote: |
If your tires are only recommended for 35psi max you can't meet the manufactures minimum requirements for tires. |
Show me one place where VW says this. A tire with a wider foot print and softer sidewalls may need less pressure, this is not rocket science. Stiffer tires with heavier sidewalls need more air so they don't damage themselves from from the heat buildup do to flexing. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| On your list 7.00/14 8ply are not available anymore, neither are 185SR14 reinforced and the 185R14 C 6ply may be unavailable as well as I have only seen 8plys recently. I guess it's unacceptable to run a tire we can actually buy, and forget running anything but 5.5x14 rims, the sticker doesn't approve anything else. |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Petervw wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
Maybe that truck tires are unsafe and you should run anything but?
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...You got me thinking, ... at what point do they become unsafe??...perhaps someone else can answer that useing my example...if I was to use a 205/65/15"/1875max load @ 54psi...but I want to maintain the recommended tire pressure of my vanagon at 36F/42R...my question is this,... by how much would the load rating "decrease too" when useing the rec. 36psi on the front...would the tire now be considered "underinflated" and "under load capacity" |
I have a similar issue.
I am getting ready to run these on my 79 Westybus
http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=COMTRAC15
and I intend to start out running them at my VW suggested pressures at 30 front and 40-44 rear and see how it goes. Perhaps I will bump up those numbers few pounds ~ 4 or 6, but not to the sidewall max of 65 psi or anything like that. They will handle the weight of my bus fine anywhere in that pressure zone as they have a load index of 102/100R.
Make your own decuision, but make an informed decision. |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| On your list 7.00/14 8ply are not available anymore, neither are 185SR14 reinforced and the 185R14 C 6ply may be unavailable as well as I have only seen 8plys recently. I guess it's unacceptable to run a tire we can actually buy, and forget running anything but 5.5x14 rims, the sticker doesn't approve anything else. |
You can run whatever you like, but this is what I said that you disagreed with.
"If you have mushy passenger tires on your van it is costing you alot more in gas then you would be saving on tires these days."
then you said this.
"I don't agree with this at all. Most of the passenger tires I have bought for my vans over the years were quite expensive, typically the top quality tire that I could buy locally. When the OEM set of Michelin passenger tires on my van worn out I initially tried truck tires, but the results were dismal, erratic handling and very poor tread life, just down right dangerous IMHO. Any claim that truck tires give better gas mileage is also just plain false to the best of my knowledge, if anything the opposite has proven true in my experience."
I was talking about passenger car tires like if you are running 14" tires that only go up to 35 psi max.
Run whatever you like, go for Light truck tires if you want your but results could be dismal.
And if you are running 8 ply tires, you are just exceding the recommended 6 ply that was available at the time.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50351
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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No I disagreed with your whole statement as I copied it.
mightyart wrote:
| Quote: |
The tire debate is really about two things, people not wanting to spend the extra money on the right tires, or trying to justify keeping the tires they just bought.
If you have mushy passenger tires on your van it is costing you alot more in gas then you would be saving on tires these days.
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As I said I have always run higher quality tires, I am not being cheap, nor an I trying to justify the tires I am running, my 83 1/2 presently has 195/14's 8 plys and my 91 has LT tires, the both meet or exceed the rear axle ratings for a Bay or Vanagon.
As for the second part a tire that is designed to run at 35 psi will probably get better gas mileage than a tire designed to run 60 at the same load. Less internal resistance and less heat build up. Yes some P-metric tires are designed to run up to 44 psi for gas mileage, they are specifically designed to be able to run at higher pressures than would otherwise be needed to carry the load, and they too will have less internal resistance than a truck tire design to handle 60 psi. With a truck tire if you have too much air for the load then you are more likely wearout the center tread rows, with a P-metric tire you are less likely to have this problem.
The ride quality of either a 44 psi P-metric or a truck tire will probably go down if you run more air pressure than is necessary for the load, conversely drop the air pressure below what is needed for the load and the truck tire may actually overheat worse than the passenger tire.
| Quote: |
| Run whatever you like, go for Light truck tires if you want your but results could be dismal. |
I happen to be very satisfied with my LT tires, a year to two down the road they may well be what I buy again. After all a Vanagon or Bay is a very light truck. |
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fspeier
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2005
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I dont quite get why people are trying to derive some guidelines from decade old tire sizes and apply some rules to it to try to figure out which 16" is correct and then fight about the results, namely whether it has to be a 99 load rating or whether you are risking limb and life with a 98 load rating.
Just call VW of America and ask them what they specify since the 14" are unavailable.
Luckily, Kevin Dawson on the vanagon.com list did so already, let me quote his email:
"Hi,
I just got off the phone with VW of America. I called them a few weeks ago
asking them for a letter stating what size of tires they would specify for
the Vanagon. I told them that Michelin has stated that they are discontinuing
many of the 14 inch tire sizes and that the selection of 14" tires to chose
from, that have the correct load rating was limited and becoming fewer by the
year. I asked them to specify a 15" tire and a 16" tire. It took them a
couple of days but Becky of VW called to say that they would specify a 205/65
R15 c or a 225/60 R 16. She said that all tires should be a load 97 or greater
and that they would send me a follow up letter making it official."
I personally have no information on whether that letter was ever sent, but anyone can call and confirm this info I suppose.
Florian |
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Lanval
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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This is from a post in another thread:
"Called around locally and the Colony Tire here has a 185/R14 Capitol brand 8-ply tire. They quoted me a price $265 for tires, mounting, and balancing. Not a bad price but I know nothing about the tires. Anyone ever heard of this brand? "
Here's the thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80696
I run these. If I was doing a lot of hard driving, I'd probably get something a bit better, but these'll work. I read that they are made not by Bridgestone but by a joint venture of Hankook and Yokohama. Mine were made in Korea, which suggests a Hankook point of mfg. FWIW I bought them in July of 07, and the mfg date is also 07. Fresh off the boat, I guess.
There are 5-8 brands that make a 185/R14 C rated (or better) tire. The Capitol tire comes in 6ply and 8ply if that'll satisfy both the strict interpreters and over-and-above guys.
The tire argument is simple.
1) There is a clear mfgr's recommendation
2) Many, many people have happily run tires below mfgr spec with no problems.
The answer is: Buy spec tires. It won't guarantee your safety. Only reduce the chance of a catastrophic failure due to inadequate load. Who wouldn't want that. But it's no panacea ~ unless you're a chemist with expertise in rubber compounds AND a tire mfg engineer, there's no way to no for certain what's going on in your tires. that's why the mfg gives specs to begin with ~ a set of rules for maximum limitation of damage.
If you choose to buy non-spec tires, I doubt they'll fail right away, and probably not ever. But they might, and the chances of a non-spec tire failing sooner and more catastrophically than a spec tire is greater (assuming a proper level of care ~ inflation, checking for cuts, odd wear patterns, etc.).
Best,
Lanval |
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levi
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005
Posts: 5522
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
No I disagreed with your whole statement as I copied it.
mightyart wrote:
| Quote: |
The tire debate is really about two things, people not wanting to spend the extra money on the right tires, or trying to justify keeping the tires they just bought.
If you have mushy passenger tires on your van it is costing you alot more in gas then you would be saving on tires these days.
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As for the second part a tire that is designed to run at 35 psi will probably get better gas mileage than a tire designed to run 60 at the same load. Less internal resistance and less heat build up. |
I was not really wanting to get involved in this thread any further, but this just doesn't make any sense. I admit, that doesn't make it incorrect, just doesn't sound right.
Less internal resistance doesn't seem likely to add up to less heat, but more. Less resistance means more flex, and more flex means more heat. The more the contact area deforms to spread out, and then reforms, the less efficient it is.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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mightyart
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As for the second part a tire that is designed to run at 35 psi will probably get better gas mileage than a tire designed to run 60 at the same load. |
You're just guessing now.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| When the OEM set of Michelin passenger tires on my van worn out I initially tried truck tires, but the results were dismal, erratic handling and very poor tread life, just down right dangerous IMHO |
I'm done too.
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Lanval wrote: |
This is from a post in another thread:
"Called around locally and the Colony Tire here has a 185/R14 Capitol brand 8-ply tire. They quoted me a price $265 for tires, mounting, and balancing. Not a bad price but I know nothing about the tires. Anyone ever heard of this brand? "
Here's the thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80696
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I bought a pair of these for the fronts on my Westy... They drive and stear nicely. I have them at 42ish psi.. no noticeable wear in one year's driving (6k).
They are skinny and short and don't look very cool.
But then I remember how cool I am and it all kind of balances out. |
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OxygenDestroyer
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2008
Posts: 172
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| There are 5-8 brands that make a 185/R14 C rated (or better) tire. The Capitol tire comes... |
I hesitate to get in on this one as people are getting grumpy, but I'm running this tire (from the PO - I believe it was referred to the PO by Kombi House in Sacramento) and I spent a good bit of time here and elsewhere confirming it meets the spec on all counts and I'm satisfied it does - toward the low end of minimum to be sure, but my van is rarely loaded down and I feel very comfortable with it. Not the softest ride out there, but it certainly feels safe enough.
| Quote: |
| They are skinny and short and don't look very cool. |
Totally agreed. I started looking into them because I wanted them to not meet spec so I could get some tires I liked. No such luck. I'm just gonna have to wear 'em out I guess. I've put way too much money into my van already - can't just toss a good set of safe tires... unless someone wants to free up a set of those 15" SA wheels i can't seem to find anywhere. |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| Petervw wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
Maybe that truck tires are unsafe and you should run anything but?
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...You got me thinking, ... at what point do they become unsafe??...perhaps someone else can answer that useing my example...if I was to use a 205/65/15"/1875max load @ 54psi...but I want to maintain the recommended tire pressure of my vanagon at 36F/42R...my question is this,... by how much would the load rating "decrease too" when useing the rec. 36psi on the front...would the tire now be considered "underinflated" and "under load capacity" |
I have a similar issue.
I am getting ready to run these on my 79 Westybus
http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=COMTRAC15
and I intend to start out running them at my VW suggested pressures at 30 front and 40-44 rear and see how it goes. Perhaps I will bump up those numbers few pounds ~ 4 or 6, but not to the sidewall max of 65 psi or anything like that. They will handle the weight of my bus fine anywhere in that pressure zone as they have a load index of 102/100R.
Make your own decuision, but make an informed decision. |
...looking at that web site, we run into confusion here because of the lack of information here...the load index is based on 65psi..how much load index will you have if you run for example 30psi in the front...don't be surprised if it ends up being Less then what the aircooled requires...at one time I had this info, but no longer and I didn't like what I saw...just remember that the ill fated ford explorer tire only needed to drop 8psi to make it a heat absorbing, self destructing tire |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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