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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good timing, because I'm in the middle of doing the pop-outs from my '59 DC right now. I think I actually have sets on hand of those seals from both WW (bought a month or two ago), and WCM (bought at least 10 years ago). I'll have to compare the widths of the "T" flange.

I'd look to see if each time that the seal tries to pop out, is it always the top or bottom edge. If it is one or the other, I'd try loosening the frame to hinge screws and slightly shifting the pop out window up or down to more center the window in the opening if possible and re-try until working correct. That may or may not be possible if the holes thru the hinge are not oval shaped (allowing some shifting). I'm not near the DC right now, but I think they are round. Did you use baby powder or talc powder on the seal to body opening to help "lubricate" the seal against the body opening? I don't know, but might make a difference...

Bill
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I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
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Thornton VW - Stockton

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Last edited by BulliBill on Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RobzKombi
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did use the B-powder on the seal, I think that my issue might be with the centering of the frame rather that the seal itself.

The issue with my window is more with the top edge. I'm going to take your advise and loosen the frame from the hinge and drop it down a bit. I'll check back in with results later this week or this weekend.

Thank you BulliBill.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RobzKombi wrote:
kenshapiro2002 wrote:
Let us know their response please.
Ken


Okay so I gave them a call and apparently they don't know anything about the seal being too narrow.

I only have two popouts on my bus and it's only one window where the seal pops out when I close it. WW did tell me to check and see if my window might be a little tweaked where the hinge is and that might be the reason as to why the seal keeps popping off.

When I get home this afternoon I will check the alignment of the window frame and take a look at the hinge to see if it's tweaked at all, also I will make sure the seal is oriented correctly.


Yeah, I have some WW pop-out frame to body seals that the "T" is too small on too. The seal feels loose in the frame, but got nice and tight when closed, and didn't pop out of its channel. Although I still don't have latches on the windows the seals went on, so I haven't opened and closed it repeatedly yet..
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kenshapiro2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread got me so interested I decided to start on mine earlier than expected. Some questions and a need for clarification:

1.) With many people talking about where to place the hinges...is this for people who have either had a hinge come unwelded or those rebuilding rusted out bodies? I'm hoping my hinges stay where they are and I can just screw in my new / rebuilt windows. Do the hinges come unwelded easily or something I'm not aware of?

2.) If I'm being factory correct, the markings on the glass, when viewed from the outside, are always on the upper, "aft" corner. The marking will be "correct on the left side, and in reverse (inside out) on the right side. Why'd VW do that?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

otis_bartleh wrote:
RobzKombi wrote:
kenshapiro2002 wrote:
Let us know their response please.
Ken


Okay so I gave them a call and apparently they don't know anything about the seal being too narrow.

I only have two popouts on my bus and it's only one window where the seal pops out when I close it. WW did tell me to check and see if my window might be a little tweaked where the hinge is and that might be the reason as to why the seal keeps popping off.

When I get home this afternoon I will check the alignment of the window frame and take a look at the hinge to see if it's tweaked at all, also I will make sure the seal is oriented correctly.


Yeah, I have some WW pop-out frame to body seals that the "T" is too small on too. The seal feels loose in the frame, but got nice and tight when closed, and didn't pop out of its channel. Although I still don't have latches on the windows the seals went on, so I haven't opened and closed it repeatedly yet..


Previous thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=403739

My post from there, on page 2 above:
EverettB wrote:
I measured the channel the seal rides in and I believe it to be 10mm. I measured a couple disassembled frames and there was some variation but I think a couple edges are tweaked from twisting upon dis-assembly.

Caliper measurements:
Original seal: 7.8mm
Wolfsburg West seal: 6.8mm
WCM Seal: 7.5mm

Note that my caliper measurements have a small variation as simply applying the calipers compresses the seal a little. I'd say +/- .1mm

Ruler (measuring by eye):
Original seal: 8mm
Wolfsburg West seal: 7mm
WCM Seal: 7.75mm

I inserted the WCM seal into a spare frame corner I have and couple not get it to pop out by pushing with my fingers. It was also harder to insert into the channel.

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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiousity, On the inner seal that slips over the "pinch" seam on the body and seals between the pop-out frame and the body (flat side towards the pop-out frame!), do you all slip it over the "pinch" seam with or without any adhesive? IIRC I haven't used any adhesive in that skinny groove before on other Buses and the seal seems to stay in place just fine, but I wondered if others had any issues and glue that seal on...

Bill
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Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!
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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alrighty then!

I reassembled the two beautifully painted Dove Blue Double-Cab pop-out frames last night with new WW seals. I cleared off some basement workbench area, turned on the HD flat-screen and padded the surface with a couple of clean, old, soft beach towels.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I chased all of the original M3.5 x .6 thread pitch threads on the frames first to clean out any over-sprayed Dove Blue paint or debris. Then I installed the 221 845 325B seals around the edges of the correct logoed glass. Because of the lube (clear lube for feeding electrical wiring through conduit - sold at Home Depot, see photo below) that I used on the outer edges of the glass to frame seals, I didn't even need clamps to press the frames together!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Everything slid together by hand, and I used a wadded up shop towel to protect the fresh Dove Blue paint whenever I needed to tap the frames together to insert the four M3.5x 5 mm long countersunk head screws. I love that lube!!! The framed windows look great.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As mentioned earlier, I had not just two, but three different types of 221 847 131A outer edge seals (between the outer edge of the pop-out window frame and the body) on hand. I said I'd compare/measure the differences between the brands. Here you go:

Wolfsburg West seals bought about 2 months ago:
"T" flange about 7.1 mm wide, about 15.4 mm tall, very nice rubber quality, nice and flexible.

West Coast Metric bought about 12 years ago:
"T" flange about 7.0 mm wide, about 14.8 mm tall, this rubber is flexible but has more of a "plastic" feel to it.

One NOS VW supplied seal with pre-formed corners (very cool!):
"T" flange about 8.0 mm wide (best width!), and about 16.6 mm tall (tallest), and nice rubber feel.

In the end, based on what I had on hand last night, I chose to use all WW products. Unfortunately I only had the one NOS seal, and if I had a matched pair I would have used the NOS stuff.. The WW seals had the slightly wider "T" flange, they were a little taller than the WCM seals, and the rubber quality seemed better to me than the more clay/plastic feel of the WCM seals which will go back on my parts shelf.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used a simple plastic pry tool (see photo) from a set sold at Harbor Freight to gently pop the outer seal into the track without needing any lubrication there. Once the WW seal was installed, it is a tiny bit loose (side-to-side) in the track, not sure it will be any problem in the corners, we'll see. The NOS seal which has the widest "T" flange would have fit more snuggly.

I'm delighted with the final result and I may get them installed on the Double-Cab today if the wife can spare a few minutes to hold them while I attach them. I'll use baby powder on the inner surfaces of the seal to "lubricate" them as they open and close, although I suspect that like all new seals, they will be resistant until the rubber is broken in. I'll get them closed and latched and leave 'em that way for a few months to take shape. I'll post up some photos of them installed later.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It was a very productive evening on the workbench watching TV and getting these pop-out windows together and ready for the install!

Bill
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I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!


Last edited by BulliBill on Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:06 am; edited 3 times in total
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kenshapiro2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way to go Bill. Trying to get out the last of the five hinge screws on my first window salvage attempt as we "speak"
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK...got the last screw out. One thing wrenching has taught me is patience. With enough heat and penetrating fluid, they all came out eventually. I was tempted to start drilling, but once again, patience was the best tool in my arsenal.

I want to keep the old hinge instead of removing it and welding in a better one. I know the hinges don't need much range of motion, and this one obviously has enough as it was operating perfectly. I am surprised at how little motion it has. I'm guessing when they're new they can actually operate in a full range? I don't wanna mess with this one too much but I'm soaking it in PB Blaster, and "exercising" it every half hour or so...just to get the inner rust and crud moving or flowing out. Do you think I should apply a little POR 15? I'm reluctant because the stuff can act like a glue. Any other ideas?
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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I doubt I'd use POR 15, as it does harden, doesn't it? If you are trying to stop rust, perhaps "naval jelly", or?

Congrats on persevering with those stuck screws! If they are originals, they are M 3.5 x .6 thread pitch by 5mm long. WW sells M 4 x 5 mm long (perhaps upon request they can supply the M 3.5 screws?, or hunt them down through a fastener supply), so you'd have to oversize drill and tap the holes for the larger diameter holes. If nothing is too munged-up, try to clean-up and re-use your original screws, or hunt down new M 3.5 screws. Most of us have some lying around somewhere...

Bill
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Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always had great luck with Maryland Metric here in Baltimore.
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kenshapiro2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BulliBill wrote:
If they are originals, they are M 3.5 x .6 thread pitch by 5mm long. WW sells M 4 x 5 mm long (perhaps upon request they can supply the M 3.5 screws?, or hunt them down through a fastener supply), so you'd have to oversize drill and tap the holes for the larger diameter holes. If nothing is too munged-up, try to clean-up and re-use your original screws, or hunt down new M 3.5 screws. Most of us have some lying around somewhere...

Bill


Well...just got back from Maryland Metrics with a bag of 100 M3.5 x. .6 5mm screws! I was so excited I was going to call WW and tell the where to stock up on them. So, I go to the WW site and they have them as well as the oversized 4mm ones:

N109051 - 3.5mm
N109071 - 4.0mm

WW sells them for $.25 and I bought them for $.09 That was an "over the counter" price. If you order over the phone from Maryland Metric, they'll be $.17. If you need some, lemme know.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BulliBill wrote:
As mentioned earlier, I had not just two, but three different types of 221 847 131A outer edge seals (between the outer edge of the pop-out window frame and the body) on hand. I said I'd compare/measure the differences between the brands. Here you go:

Wolfsburg West seals bought about 2 months ago:
"T" flange about 7.1 mm wide, about 15.4 mm tall, very nice rubber quality, nice and flexible.

West Coast Metric bought about 12 years ago:
"T" flange about 7.0 mm wide, about 14.8 mm tall, this rubber is flexible but has more of a "plastic" feel to it.

One NOS VW supplied seal with pre-formed corners (very cool!):
"T" flange about 8.0 mm wide (best width!), and about 16.6 mm tall (tallest), and nice rubber feel.

In the end, based on what I had on hand last night, I chose to use all WW products. Unfortunately I only had the one NOS seal, and if I had a matched pair I would have used the NOS stuff.. The WW seals had the slightly wider "T" flange, they were a little taller than the WCM seals, and the rubber quality seemed better to me than the more clay/plastic feel of the WCM seals which will go back on my parts shelf.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Sounds good but weird that the WCM and WW seals were so close together in size. Both my WW and WCM seals that I mentioned in the post above were from about 3 years ago.

Let us know if you have any issue with them popping out of the corners.

For reference, I had that happen on 2 different Buses - my '63 15-Window and my '61 Double Cab.

My 15-Window had the inner seals replaced with new, my Double cab did not as I wanted to replace the outers but leave everything else as-is.
Pop-out frames were original VW.
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Last edited by EverettB on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using Fluid Film on my hinges to lubricate them and it prevents additional rusting. Doesn't stain the paint and have black streaks later. Seems to be working pretty good. It does have an odor but not nearly as bad as pb blaster.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny, I was just looking at a restored deluxe at a local auction that had the pop-out seals falling out of the corners. One of the guys cleaning cars said there's a note not to open windows.

It's been a couple years since I've done pop-out windows, but I remembering I had the same problem with the WW seals. I ended up flipping the seal around and it worked well... You'd think it looks backwards, but the T-moulding doesn't come out and it breaks in, fits, opens and closes well. Prior to that I think I used WCM seals. I like the WW ones better as they're easier to open.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as I said above, these are the original 1959 DC-only frames for this Double-Cab, and the outer frame-to-body scrapper seals that I had to choose from were WW seals bought about 2 months ago and WCM seals bought about 12 years ago.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Those (and the single NOS pre-molded-corner seal) were the ones that I measured with calipers and reported back on. I ended up using the new WW outer scrapper pop-out seals and in brand new (un-broken-in yet) condition, I'm pleased to report that the seals are not popping out of the track in the original frames at all.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I suspect that the baby powder had a lot to do with the slippery-ness of the seals. I'm pretty happy with the results on this Double-Cab, as I expected lots of binding/popping off issues in those corners. Thankfully, It's just not happening here...

Bill Bowman
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I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!


Last edited by BulliBill on Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had really good luck using a combo of soaking in penetrating oil of various brands then heating and cooling the small screws with a propane torch then water. The screws will come out so easily that you can actually reuse the screws if you want.

I have only used this method when there is no glass in the frame and I have access to both sides of the screw. My question is, how do I safely apply heat to the screw heads if the window glass is installed in the frame or am I forced to drill the heads off the screws?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pondoras box wrote:
I have had really good luck using a combo of soaking in penetrating oil of various brands then heating and cooling the small screws with a propane torch then water. The screws will come out so easily that you can actually reuse the screws if you want.

I have only used this method when there is no glass in the frame and I have access to both sides of the screw. My question is, how do I safely apply heat to the screw heads if the window glass is installed in the frame or am I forced to drill the heads off the screws?

Thanks.


Penetrating oil, but no heat. Drill if the penetrating oil doesn't do the trick.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:


the rubber for the popout window seals have a round side and a flat side. which way does the flat side go? flat towards outside/ rounded side towards inside? i'm talking about the inner seal rubber that goes on the bus body, not the on the window frame. i got that one right.

Flat against the pop-out window frame


OK, I'm still not clear on this. I'm doing mine right now with WCM seals and the glass/frame assemblies are going great. The seal that rides on the body has a lip that either leans inward or outward when installed. Everett, you say "Flat against the frame", does that mean the lip leans inward?

Also, several asked about glue on this seal- do you glue it to the body or leave it dry? Mine is a deluxe, so there's headliner wrapped around this lip making it fatter than a standard. A test fit dry seemed like they would fit nicely with no glue (maybe?) but when doing 6 windows I'd like to get it right the first time.

Thanks, guys!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lip has a flat side and a smaller side. IE.... '-/ with the / going on the outside... Does that help? I have not used glue or adhesive on the body seal, i have had to reseat on occasion, my originals did not appear to have an adhesive, however seemed to fit better than the repops, either stiffer or better formed... Ie, an adhesive in the corners my not be a bad idea.
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