Do I rebuild the syncro transmission or let the buyer?

[mitch5]

Tough choices

Had my converted ej22 syncro subaru powered westy decide to start making a very bad bearing noise that turned into a howl in 1st and 2nd. The trans is a locker with decoupler and was only rebuilt 3 years ago(20k) by a reputable builder. Did regular fluid changes and never pushed the van hard on hwy. Had i known how weak this trans was, i probably would have never swapped to syncro.


I am planning to sell, but given a rebuild can cost between 3k to 10k should i decide how to rebuild it or let the prospective buyer choose and sell with the howling trans. For reference everything on this van has been replaced including a new ej25/ej22 short block subaru engine.

[Wellington]

I would ask the rebuilder if the warrantry on the rebuild is transferable to the new owner. Is there a warantry mated to a Subaru motor?

Those can make the decision easy.

[mitch5]

[Wellington]

Yes, you are past the present warrantry.
I mean if you get it rebuilt now and sell it in 2 months, will the new warrantry be honored in the new owners name?

[E1]

If the builder’s local to you, and who I think, I’d let him look at it — and especially in such low miles since the rebuild.

*Very trustworthy* guy, but know that Subarus have been a blighted thorn on his warranty stream and most certainly on other builders as well.

It’s nearly impossible to absorb the losses forced on good shops in warrantying anything that’s only designed for up to 100 hp, and the rest of us get to pay a premium for it.

Best of Luck.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[IdahoDoug]

I'd think the investment now would be better than breakeven for you in selling, plus actually ALLOW you to sell.

First point logic is these are pricey vehicles and people are going to offer you lowball money for a distressed powertrain vehicle. Conversely, people will offer you good money for an "everything's pretty fresh" vehicle. So I think if you invest $5000 here, you'll exactly get it back in the sale value, plus possibly a bit if you're a good salesman.

Second point. I think you'll diminish your buyer pool to 1/10 the normal size trying to sell a howling, distressed powertrain vehicle. Only a small fraction of buyers of ANY vehicle are willing and able to purchase a vehicle they cannot immediately drive, and must immediately invest thousands of dollars in and find a specialist mechanic for. So your odds of finding a buyer for distressed merchandise go WAY down - so low I'll make a prediction.

Add both of these two sales - dampening effects to the ALREADY frustrating and often lengthy process of selling a specialty vehicle, and you'll still have the vehicle this winter and be so damn sick of explaining to lowball vultures, you'll finally accept a lowball offer.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Sodo]

[E1]

Something is desperately wrong if any rebuilds by any shops are only lasting 9,000 to 20,000 miles en masse.

While temperature is a great indicator, the forces created by additional power — mostly torque — of anything bigger than a Wasserboxer certainly contributes to premature failure. It’s basic, but if driven with a delicate touch still has to be *much more durable* than your experiences.

As said above, builders are reporting much duress from honoring warranties when non-stock engines put massively-increased stress on gearboxes, and when not driven with sympathy.

Five or so years ago, many were frustratedly reporting rebuilds “only lasting 100,000 miles.” We’re only a bit over 20K on ours, and replaced oil today for the first time in nearly 20, to have a very small amount of shards on the plug.

The same rebuilders were in business then, too and if anything have improved their game since.

So what’s changed, and what culpability rests in the hands and feet of us drivers?

Parts from those like Guard are clearly as good as then, or likely getting better over time, so there’s a lot of unanswered reasons here if suddenly we can only expect 10-20,000 miles from even a bare-bones, standard, $1,500 rebuild.

Meaning, again, something’s amiss and your experiences are nothing like what others report — and have for decades. I’ll be shocked and disappointed if we get anything less than 100,000 miles from our current rebuilt transmission, after getting well over 300K from our original box on our first van.

The one inarguable variation is we do mostly open roads, so a daily driver, city-bound vehicle won’t get the same extreme longevity — but that surely doesn’t equate to 80 or 90% less life.

Nobody would have *ever, ever* supported our brand if typical gearbox longevity matched yours.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Ahwahnee]

[E1]

On your first sentence, exactly, it’s pretty hard not to power down and beyond other factors I think that’s the source of low-mileage life.

In my opinion, hard acceleration is far more the issue than is highway travel — if at reasonable speeds, which for me is 65 now and against my prior, lifelong affinity of a thousand-mile, continuous drive in the 80s with not a single transmission issue in over a million miles of travel. I never once even changed gear oil.

Sodo’s recommendation of a temp gauge is spot on to see what’s up in there, big difference going even 65 if 50 degrees outside as compared to 90. But since they were never designed with forced oiling, and went a long ways originally (when even modestly taken care of), Mewonders what exact forces necessitate that now.

Hillclimbs, and especially when struggling to climb one offroad at full-hot, wheel speed all over the place and trying to find grip, is where my box tells me in no uncertain terms that I’m asking for failure. So I back off, or park and rest.

When did our trannies originate? Kam knows this surely, were they the same with the first Vanagons and their 67 hp air-cooleds? If so, even 95 hp is a big jump on the same parts, while 135 or 155 or 175 is an atmospheric change.

I’m a lifetime racing guy and would absolutely love more power! But my perspectives differ from most in that our very survival dictates not breaking down a hundred miles from Nowhere so have developed some restraints to keep going.

It’s still damned fun doing this, without pounding our equipment, which is exactly what two builders have relayed as to why gearboxes are failing well before their time. We choose to respect our genre and parts supplies more than my personal thrashing pleasure, and have genuine concerns for our builders, their profitability, and their continuing participation.

Though, in my view, torque is far more the concern than is horsepower.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[4Gears4Tires]

Wouldn't horsepower actually be the bigger concern since we're talking wear and horsepower is power expressed over time?
_________________
'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition

[E1]

Good question and can’t say for sure — though the concepts of excessive power in either case are threatening.

My understanding of excess torque are in gears trying to turn against each other in far-greater twisting forces. Greater oiling seems like it would help that but perhaps ignores the baseline issue to start with.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Sodo]

E1 you have asked me not to address points that you make.
But your list covers a fairly wide swath of the pertinent subjects that beg discussion.

I'll touch on some other aspects then.

Noise in 1st/2nd kinda suggests the pinion shaft.....
Maybe something went wrong in assembly, like he forgot to stake the pinion bearing??
This happens - a step gets missed.
Or re-used a really pittted pinion shaft, or re-used a worn-out 2nd gear.
2nd gears are getting real old now....

If the pinion shaft is moving (for any reason) there are some real expensive Syncro parts getting destroyed. Did the shifter move in 1st or 2nd (on accel/decel)?

On my 9,000 mile gearbox I found the smokin' gun. The reputable builder sanded the pinion bearing down to 're-use' an old pinion bearing. Which is not a reputable move at all, it was guaranteed to fail shortly. Clearly he didn't even understand 'the why'. Re-fitting a USED pinion bearing could possibly be done by a shop that had a 'surface grinder'..... for a budget rebuild.
But there's not a chance in hell that a pinion bearing can be ground "by hand".
And the only person who's gonna discover that is an "outside inspector".

I do have to add that many other 'things' have been learned since that fateful day in 2016 when I found this 'smokin gun'.
It's definitely smokin' ! But.....
But add other factors to a poorly built gearbox.... and it's lifetime is even shorter.
In addition to "rebuild quality" (or errors), how old were the 'reused parts", temperature, how fast/heavy you drive, maintenance style, driving style, and recent discoveries of electrical assault.
Which all of the above get worse, when there's a "big engine" hanging on this gearbox.

And did you really notice "when" it started to make noise?
Noise can creep up on you.
If I was paying attention... perhaps I could have made it under the "2-year warranty" on my 'rebuilds'.
But I was in denial too, and seldom driving the van.

If the case is real corroded that can suggest a grounding problem,,,,, which erodes internal parts, and of course the gearbox cannot last under internal electrical assault.
But to find electrical as a contributor, you have to be LOOKING for it.
And virtually nobody is looking.
but.....just asking....does this van have a big "house battery"?
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[E1]

[elizer]

Fix it. Camp in it. Sell it.

Per wellington ask the builder if the warranty can be transferable since you plan on selling the van.
_________________
91 syncro westy fas tdi

[MsTaboo]

I would also suggest weight as a possible contributor to transaxle woes. Add that to long highway trips at speed with heat and stress.
Not to say this is what mitch5 did, just speculation based on a few pictures in mitch5's gallery. If you overload the vehicle and then push it hard it stands to reason this would shorten the lifespan of a transmission originally designed for a lighter vehicle. I remember another Samba member who built out his Syncro Westy with all the bells and whistles and had numerous troubles with rebuilds; he later put his Syncro on a diet.

I would vote with those who advocate getting the box rebuilt before sale, especially if you can do the grunt work of R&R.
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

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[IdahoDoug]

I'll point out one shortcoming of using gearcase temp to accurately assess stress on the internal bits versus stock. While the average temperature of a gallon(?) of moving oil may only go up a few degrees, or even be kept stable under stress, it's the actual gear contact faces that matter. So, with an engine that puts out 40% more power, thats 40% more gearface pressure (all else equal, of course) and roughly equates to 40% more gearface temp to be accounted for/shed via heat transfer.

So, the temp on the little bits might go up a LOT (with attendant wear/damage), it won't heat up the oil temp we read on the guage proportionately, especially a burst of full power that may not even move the needle. Yet that will cause damage.

When the gearbox was designed by the talented folks at VW, with a goal of reliability paired with a 92hp engine, they knew all about this principle. They also knew how wide and thick the gears needed to be to handle 92hp, how large the bearings supporting the shaft needed to be, and even the thickness of the outer aluminum case to resist flexing at all expected forces. In other words, it was designed for X horsepower in all respects, and no more. Adding more metal beyond that is a waste of money when your assembly lines are rolling thousands a month. I used to deal with this as a career (Worldwide Powertrain Planner for GM) and adding 40% more power needs to be treated with the knowledge that you are way off the reservation in reliability expectations. Indeed, that these boxes last as well as they do is a testament to the quality of the various vendors and shops that build them. By rights these things should grenade in 3000 miles if the full power is regularly brought to bear...
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[mitch5]

[mitch5]

Thanks for all the feedback and reasoning. I am planning to rebuild the transmission, luckily i am able to deal with sinking 5-10k into a van that will not move for a few months.

I suppose I am 1 out of those 10 who would prefer to buy the busted van so i could rebuild it to my desire. Most people would probably prefer to buy a van thats ready to go and drive it away to use on a trip.

In the meantime i have decided to start looking at quigley ecoline vans, 4x4 sportsmobile prices have dropped and are now inline with a decent westy syncro in terms of cost.

[E1]

That’s exactly the rig we’d like if/when we sell the Westy, but need more value per miles put down first.

Might be interesting for you to factor in hassle to rebuild, length of time awaiting sales money, your time’s value, etc. and advertise now As Is.

But again, if the builder is who I think, if me I’d let him look. He’s really honest and what if the failure is cheap to fix?

If a random shop did the rebuild and you’ll pay like it’s a new job, I myself would consider the As Is option and move on… it’s also a prime time to sell…
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman