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Autocrossing the 58 rag
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Ghia Nut
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just a really stupid idea roach, but if you are that concerned about it, maybe put some conduit around it?

Im watching this thread like a hawk btw.
did you just roll up to Napa and get the radiator hose like that, and what is the price per foot if you dont mind me asking bacause Im going to use that, cant fool with welding pipes for my car.
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OTO X58
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mooosman wrote:
OTO X58 wrote:

To be honest, I am not thrilled with how the coolant or fuel line routing came out, but it'll do for now.


It looks fine. 3/8" fuel line is huge for what you're going to do with the car, but it looks like it's mounted pretty solid to the pan. If you're worrying about ripping something off, I'll just say that almost every car on the road today has fuel lines run the same way, hanging underneath the car, with no problems. The water lines look pretty robust, so they shouldn't wear through, either.

What's your air box from? I'm using one from an early 90s Chevy Cavalier, and it's pretty tiny at about 6x6x3". Buick/Olds/Pontiac 3.8 stuff from the late 80s uses the same filter as mine, and has a similar size box with a 3" hose attachment on the side. Those boxes are about 7x7x5".


Nick


edit: That fan is off a Saab, isn't it? I had the same one on mine for a while. Laughing


Yeah, 3/8" is more than enough for sure. I guess I just figured that if I am going to do it, then I should do it big just in case I change my mind and want to make 400hp some day LOL, but I am not going to do that....

I'll snap a picture later, but the air box I got is from a Nissan 280SX. It has a really cool shape to it, and it's stamped steel so it looks a little more "vintage performance" if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, it just doesn't fit on the firewall. I think that's partially because I moved the engine forward in the car. The dimensions you're describing for the cavalier box sound awesome though.

Oh, and I got that fan from a 90s Mercedes. It had 2 on it, and I was hoping I could fit them both, but there's just not enough room. I got it because it looked to have a large motor so I was hoping it would push a lot of air. I was just reading your thread on Shoptalk, and yours does look identical, but why did you dump your Saab fan?






Ghia Nut wrote:
just a really stupid idea roach, but if you are that concerned about it, maybe put some conduit around it?

Im watching this thread like a hawk btw.
did you just roll up to Napa and get the radiator hose like that, and what is the price per foot if you dont mind me asking bacause Im going to use that, cant fool with welding pipes for my car.


It's cool to hear that other people are watching my thread eagerly, because I am always watching other build threads like that, eager to see progress (and then judge the outcome to help decide what I'll do with my car later!). Weird to be on the other side of things for once. And I have to say, after a few years of reading Subaru swap threads and saying to myself "I would have done that waaaay better than this guy!" I have come to realize that this shit is harder than it looks. Much respect for anyone who has done this and come out of it with a running car. And bonus points if it actually looks good, too!

I agree with you, the coolant and fuel lines shouldn't be an issue at all. And just like you said about the conduit, I briefly thought about building a rectangular box that would conceal all those lines running down the center. But I really don't think it's necessary. I guess it's just that when I envisioned my Subaru swap, I pictured it being completely invisible Laughing So having those lines under there is just not my favorite thing.

Here's a link to where they have the coolant line listed for sale. Doesn't offer much of a description though. (*edit, click on "SML BLK Chevy V8 on the left of the screen, then scroll down to Optional Parts)
http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

I tried googling "straight 1 1/4" radiator hose" to get some more information for you, but I didn't come up with anything particularly helpful. But I did see that Renegade Hybrids typically sells "Gates green stripe" hose, so maybe try looking into that? I will inspect my lines and see if I can find a part number or anything.


Heading of to go get more of Jeff's help TIG welding up some stuff for the car right now. I'll post up some pictures late tonight. Thanks again for the kind words!
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RIP HBB 10.10.84 - 12.25.09
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Last edited by OTO X58 on Wed May 25, 2011 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Scott H
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good, Thomas, I'm loving this build. Can't wait to see some video of it at a track day.
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Mooosman
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTO X58 wrote:
I was just reading your thread on Shoptalk, and yours does look identical, but why did you dump your Saab fan?


And I have to say, after a few years of reading Subaru swap threads and saying to myself "I would have done that waaaay better than this guy!" I have come to realize that this shit is harder than it looks. Much respect for anyone who has done this and come out of it with a running car. And bonus points if it actually looks good, too!



I got rid of the Saab fan because it just wasn't very efficient. Yes, it had a huge motor on it, but because it was mounted on the front of the radiator, that huge motor ended up blocking a large part of the surface area.

I ended up finding a fan from a Mitsubishi Mirage that fit my radiator almost perfectly. It mounts on the back of the radiator, and has a metal shroud that covers almost the entire core surface. The whole front of the radiator is now open to the air. It seems to work better, too; since I have had it done this way, the fan almost never has to click on. In fact, the only time it does cycle is when I'm sitting in traffic for more than 5 minutes. The fan never cycles when I'm moving.



And yeah, this shit is harder than it looks! I've tried to make my swap as clean as possible, but even when you have a bunch of time to sit there and plan something out, it still doesn't always come out like you want. My swap got a whole lot better looking after I met someone in the local VW club that would swap parts for TIG welding. I had a bunch of stuff welded by him, and it saved me a bunch of headaches. The swap looks more 'finished' when you don't have to cobble stuff together. Laughing

It's worth it in the end, though! No more valve adjustments, a far better heater, more power, and a much smoother engine! Cool


Nick
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTO X58 wrote:
Oh, and I got that fan from a 90s Mercedes. It had 2 on it, and I was hoping I could fit them both, but there's just not enough room. I got it because it looked to have a large motor so I was hoping it would push a lot of air. I was just reading your thread on Shoptalk, and yours does look identical, but why did you dump your Saab fan?


Nearly all Euro cars use Spal fans.
The vast majority of cars out there even with 2 fans only use 1 for radiator cooling and both for A/C or 1 for initial cooling then staged the 2nd one once temps get above a set point.
I've got 2 9" fans on mine and it can survive on just one, but 2 makes it's life abit easier but they definately work far better pulling rather than pushing.

A mate has an Audi fan shroud on his radiator which has a bunch of rubber flaps around the fan.
when on the move the natural air flow opens them up and lets air get away then when stationary the fan running sucks them back shut so all the air is pulled through by the fan.
so simple yet so effective.

Gotta agree with Nick, it's great reading and watching peoples conversions, everyone has their own little ideas.

When I started my conversion a few years back now I couldn't find any indepth threads that covered fitting an N/A EJ engine into a bug which was why I made my thread as thorough as possible.
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OTO X58
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update before I hit the sack. It's really just a list of things that got welded tonight.

We cut the front ports off of the fuel rails, welded them shut, then put the new ports in the center of the rail. This way, the crossover tube will be somewhat hidden under the intake manifold to help it look a little cleaner:

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Also, dropped the size of the water outlet on this EJ20T housing to 1.25", which at the same time creates enough clearance between this outlet and the dipstick:

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Also welded the filler spout onto the top of the radiator:

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It's low enough to sit under my shroud while still being the highest point in the front of the car. I'll have an overflow bottle down there on the side of the radiator below the filler spout. And I am going to try and get away with just a petcock on the crossover pipe on the engine. Hopefully I'll be able to open up that petcock to let the air out of the back, and use the filler to get all the air out of the front. Although, it sounds like you guys have had problems getting these systems burped, so I may be re-doing this before long.

Oh, and some pictures of the air box I got, and how it just doesn't quite fit:

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What you can't tell in this picture is that the air box outlet is sitting further back (towards the camera, away from the firewall) than the mouth of the throttle body. But, I think this airbox would be perfect to mount under the car, so I am going to hang onto it and try that out later.

Oh, and here's this picture just because it's awesome:
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OTO X58
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scott H wrote:
Looking good, Thomas, I'm loving this build. Can't wait to see some video of it at a track day.


Dude! I can't wait either!

Mooosman wrote:

I got rid of the Saab fan because it just wasn't very efficient. Yes, it had a huge motor on it, but because it was mounted on the front of the radiator, that huge motor ended up blocking a large part of the surface area.

Joel wrote:

they definately work far better pulling rather than pushing.


Well, damn. Just like so many other things, at this point I am going to just run it and see how it goes. If I have cooling issues, I'll know a couple of things to change, including that fan. Thanks for the input, guys!
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Mooosman
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTO X58 wrote:

Well, damn. Just like so many other things, at this point I am going to just run it and see how it goes. If I have cooling issues, I'll know a couple of things to change, including that fan.



Don't feel bad. I've had to "re-engineer" several things on my car to get it to work right. I now have a stash of parts that 'almost work.' Rolling Eyes

The cooling system is the hardest thing to get right. Once you get it dialed in, though, the rest is easy.


Nick Cool
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHen you're re-engineering a car from scratch with no plans there's bound to be a few changes to be made.

I've made several mods to my cooling system, fuel system, exhaust, speed sensor etc over time as stuff has failed or I find better ways to do it.

Give the fan a go on the front you may find it works fine.
My old girls Peugeot 206 only has one fan mounted on the front of the a/c condenser that is also for the radiator.

But when I was researching fans it seemed that as pushers they only move about 3/4 the volume that they do setup as a pullers
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I'd see how your getting along with this thing and I'd figured you have blown it up by now Very Happy So far so good, looks like Jeff has you on the right track. You going to be out at BOR? I'll be there with the race bug sat and sun.

Some quick notes on the build:

-6 (3/8") fuel line is perfect, not too big or small and the sump can on the gas tank is a great idea.

The radiator fan may not be strong enough for stop/go traffic or track duty. Look for something with ~1000cfm or more.

Make sure you put a high swirl pot in the rear for the cooling system now, it will save you headaches later.

I love the wheels, they look the business on your car

And here's a little inspiration for you Wink

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Link

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OTO X58
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I skipped Bugorama to work on the car. Had I realized that it was going to be an unusually cool Bug-O rather than the typical 100 degree torture fest, I may have gone up there. But I am happy to have gotten some stuff done on the rag.

I tied up most of the loose ends on Saturday, then dragged my bug over to Jeff's place that night, so that he could build the wiring harness. He has spent the past couple of days working on my harness, and I am very thankful for that because it's turned out much nicer than it would if I did it myself.

He took a really interesting approach, by first cutting the connector off of the harness I bought from DIYAutotune. That way, he could remove the wires he won't need and then build the rest of it from the engine forward. Meaning that everything can be routed and shrink wrapped nice and tidy on the engine end, and it all pops out into the car where the computer will be and gets cut to the same length. To finish it off, a connector is put back onto those wires (using a connector he bought at Fry's that has solder cups) and the connector housing bolted to it.

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First step was to hook things up and figure out where I wanted the wires to run. Intimidating bunch of wires right then!



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If you look close, you can see sharpie marks on the wires, which were indicators of where we wanted the shrink wrap and sheathing to end, as these little bundles got put into larger bundles.



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Alternator wiring turned out simple and clean.



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Injector wiring, on the passenger side.



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Here's the whole harness, just before the main connector was put on. You can see the firewall grommet sitting on the harness where it will poke through into the engine compartment.



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And here's that panel where I am mounting the computer, under the back seat area. You can see the new connector soldered and shrink wrapped into place, and another group of wires which aren't going into the connector. Those not routed to the computer will be going to relays or to the front of the car.

The harness is close to complete now. I have oil in the engine and tranny, and the fuel lines are almost ready to connect at the back. I am hoping that I'll be able to fire this thing up next weekend!
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Autocross 1958 Rag Build - Subaru Swap!
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OTO X58
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spydrb8 wrote:
Thought I'd see how your getting along with this thing and I'd figured you have blown it up by now Very Happy So far so good, looks like Jeff has you on the right track. You going to be out at BOR? I'll be there with the race bug sat and sun.

Some quick notes on the build:

-6 (3/8") fuel line is perfect, not too big or small and the sump can on the gas tank is a great idea.

The radiator fan may not be strong enough for stop/go traffic or track duty. Look for something with ~1000cfm or more.

Make sure you put a high swirl pot in the rear for the cooling system now, it will save you headaches later.

I love the wheels, they look the business on your car

And here's a little inspiration for you Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Link


Thanks Will. I browsed through your other videos and really liked the one where you had a camera on the roof of the car! It really lets you dissect the course from that vantage point.

I am going to try and get away without a water tank in the rear. I think that having a petcock on the top of the crossover pipe will let me get all the air out of the system on that end, and having the cap at the top of the radiator will do the same at the front end. If I have issues burping the system, I will change it. But I hope it works out this way so it stays clean.

Same with the radiator fan. If it doesn't work out, I can change it. But judging by the cooling fans on Kirk's K20 bug and David's Nitrous EJ22 bug, it should work out fine. Then again, staying cool on a drag car is different than an autocross car, where you're pushing the car hard for longer than 13 seconds at a time! I'll just have to see how it goes.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTO X58 wrote:
I am hoping that I'll be able to fire this thing up next weekend!


Sweet. Make sure to make a video! Cool


What did you end up deciding on as far as the air box goes?

FYI: since you don't have a high spot in the cooling system at the back of the car, the easiest way to fill the cooling system (for me) was:

1) Jack the front of the car a couple feet into the air
2) Crack open the bleeder on the engine
3) Start filling the rad, and have someone at the back of the car watch for water to come out of the bleeder.
4) When water comes out of the bleeder, close it and finish filling the radiator. You can now lower the front of the car.
5) Start it up, and crack the bleeder valve open every few minutes until you get no more air bubbles.

This method worked for me before I added the header tank at the back. I would imagine it'll be the same for you. Are you running a thermostat, or just a restrictor?


Nick
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how are you managing the spark on this MS setup... and is your friend for hire... seriously considering MS now.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would guess squirt and spark will fire the Suby coil packs?

Thomas, when the time comes, where are you positioning the turbo?
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its coming along nicely Thomas. Sorry I didn't come by Jeffs the other day, me and the wifey went to the movies. Missed you at BOR, its just not the same with the "crew" together.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mooosman wrote:


Sweet. Make sure to make a video! Cool
What did you end up deciding on as far as the air box goes?
Are you running a thermostat, or just a restrictor?


I'll make a video for sure!
I haven't really decided anything with the air box. I'll just stick a cone filter on it for now, and address it later. I would love to have the airbox under the parcel shelf if I can make that happen.

I will be running a thermostat, and thank you for the tips on burping the system. I'll definitely check back to this thread and try your suggestions.

Ghia Nut wrote:
how are you managing the spark on this MS setup... and is your friend for hire... seriously considering MS now.


We have the injectors firing in two pairs, not sequentially. Although Megasquirt can be configured to work with sequential ignition, it is more simple this way. And I did ask my friend about building a harness for someone else and he pointed out that we've spent 5 or 6 hours on mine already, so paying him to do it would get pricey. And he didn't sound excited about the idea. LOL

The reason I went with Megasquirt was because I wanted to be able to readjust my engine management when I make changes to the engine. For example, adding a turbo or changing the cams and compression ratio. It's just the logical way to go, I think, if you're not going to keep the engine stock.

70 140 wrote:
I would guess squirt and spark will fire the Suby coil packs?

Thomas, when the time comes, where are you positioning the turbo?

Yeah, you're right. The MS is controlling the stock coil pack, and using a stock crank position sensor, through the use of an STI crank sproket, because it has a 36 -2 -2 -2 tooth pattern on it.
As for the turbo placement, it could go one of two places: either behind the apron in front of the timing cover, or in the back of the engine, below one of the axles. I like the second option better, because it'd be more hidden and I'd be worried about melting a timing cover if it was up front. To avoid turbo lag and because I don't want to make huge power anyway, it's going to be a tiny turbo. That should make it easier to fit somewhere.

Capsoval wrote:
Its coming along nicely Thomas. Sorry I didn't come by Jeffs the other day, me and the wifey went to the movies. Missed you at BOR, its just not the same with the "crew" together.


Thanks Kirk! Yeah, watching the videos of your car running down the track made me regret not going a bit. Congrats on your 11.1! Looked like a fun day! Don't worry, I'll definitely be there next time... so that you guys can all smoke me as usual. Laughing
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OTO X58
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the harness nearly wrapped up tonight. All that's lacking are the wires that will run to the front of the car:
1. Fan power
2. fuel pump power
3. water temp sender wire
4. tach wire
5. keyed power wire (for the MS computer)
6. one extra in case I want to hook up a wide band display in the future.


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This is the connector that will attach to the wires coming from the front of the car.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTO X58 wrote:


I will be running a thermostat


Don't forget to loop the 2 heater lines together (front passenger side of the engine as it sits in a VW). That heater pipe on the passenger side of the engine controls the thermostat. Without the line looped together, the thermostat won't open until it's too late.

You might also want to drill a small 1/16" hole in the thermostat flange, to make the cooling system easier to fill. It lets some water flow by the thermostat when it's closed.

Looks like Jeff did a nice job on the harness! I like where you guys mounted it in the car; very clean. Cool


Nick
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mooosman wrote:
OTO X58 wrote:


I will be running a thermostat


Don't forget to loop the 2 heater lines together (front passenger side of the engine as it sits in a VW). That heater pipe on the passenger side of the engine controls the thermostat. Without the line looped together, the thermostat won't open until it's too late.

You might also want to drill a small 1/16" hole in the thermostat flange, to make the cooling system easier to fill. It lets some water flow by the thermostat when it's closed.

Looks like Jeff did a nice job on the harness! I like where you guys mounted it in the car; very clean. Cool


Nick


Good call, thanks for the reminder. I did pull that press-in fitting out of the thermostat housing, and tapped the hole for a right angle pipe fitting, so that the little 3/8" coolant line will run towards the front of the car and clear the exhaust. It'll go up and run into the bottom of the crossover pipe.

And I do plan to drill a little hole in the thermostat. I remember that being a part of the process in my dad's WRX 914 that Jeff built. By the way, here's a link to that build thread in case anyone is interested:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=102887
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