How much would you pay for a new Syncro transaxle? |
A) under $5000 |
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32% |
[ 42 ] |
B) $5000 - $8000 |
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32% |
[ 42 ] |
C) $8000- $10,000 |
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17% |
[ 23 ] |
D) $10,000 - $15,000 |
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8% |
[ 11 ] |
E) Whatever it takes! |
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9% |
[ 12 ] |
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Total Votes : 130 |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4096 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I wanted to start a new thread dedicated to the idea of an all new Syncro transaxle rather than side-tracking existing threads on Syncro transaxle failures.
The idea is to explore the possibility of developing a direct, bolt on, replacement for the original. No fancy hi/lo transfer cases, extra gears, or anything like that. A replacement that can handle higher hp/torque and heavier loads while still using the original shifting linkage, lockers, drive shaft, decouplers, etc. with a granny gear and ratios to match the front diff.
The idea is to keep it simple and the cost down.
As I said in another thread, I have no expertise to draw on, but like many others I feel the need is great and there is a market large enough to make it worthwhile. Rather than spending thousands on rebuilds that fail, a new robust transaxle!
I think that the market is also larger than just Vanagon Syncros, it could be sold for sand-rails, 4x4 buggies, etc. _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
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Help the fight against Truth Decay.
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Syncro Jael Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013 Posts: 2204 Location: Utah
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I do believe there is enough interest for a company to tool up and improve the transaxle that we have or manufacture an entirely new product. There is enough documentation of failures that these failed areas could be improved. Speaking with Ron, at Weddle, the ring and pinion is entirely to small for the loads on it from the Van. Add a bunch of torque, heat, and well, you get the picture. He said there is not enough demand, or enough room under the Vanagon platform to make a transaxle to withstand what we are asking from them.
That is hard to believe when I see the Mendeola transaxles out there on extreme sand rails being pushed by turbo charged LS1 engines at over 800 horsepower on large paddle tired six seat sand rails. I can buy one for around $11k brand new!
http://ranchotransaxles.com/mendeola-transaxles/
No body can make us a simple transaxle for our vans? _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat) |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32625 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gl98115 Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2011 Posts: 263 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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A number of people have paid $10k+ for engine conversions. _________________ '87 faux-Syncro Westy w/ 2.3l GoWesty WBX |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32625 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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quattro syncro van Banned
Joined: September 12, 2016 Posts: 13 Location: Hawaii
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Call me crazy, but I read that people want to either weigh the poor mule down or romp on it.
In the other post it was said work = heat.
Well heat = money and weighing her down or rolling her over will cost you big time.
With people saying this is what they want to do, I say that if it is made and driven like this, the money choices in the poll don't cover the cost.
When it breaks and it will, what are you going to do?
Is this company fixing it, replacing it, charging, on the house, what?
Untested one off renderings need to be tested, it takes time and money.
This project is going to take years to even establish.
If you spend $15,000 and it doesn't work are you any better off than you are right now? |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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There are several trains of getting involved here in Vanagonland.
(A) Go the least expensive, and live on borrowed time.
(B) The skies the limit, the Diamond Jim approach.
I think there might be a market for some updated 4x4 driveline parts, but the market will be real narrow, very limited. _________________ T.K. |
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syncrodoka Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005 Posts: 12006 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Syncro Jael wrote: |
That is hard to believe when I see the Mendeola transaxles out there on extreme sand rails being pushed by turbo charged LS1 engines at over 800 horsepower on large paddle tired six seat sand rails. I can buy one for around $11k brand new! |
Have you seen that tranny in real life? It is massive, I saw them building some up when I was at rancho recently.
Honestly if I needed to fork out $11K to buy the bulletproof tranny of everybody's dreams I would cash out and move on to some soulless 'merican POS. Spending big money to upgrade a car worth medium money doesn't make sense to me even though I love the platform.
I have logged many miles on my cars and have yet to have a catastrophic type of failure that people keep saying is going to happen to the"weak" syncro tranny(knocks on wood). I do have a bigger project syncro but it isn't a piggy camper just a tin top so who know what is in the future. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9610 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Paint jobs are 10k. People will pay that to romp.
If there's "little space" for a larger transaxle what HP is it designed for? Is there space for 150hp? That's plenty. It cruises at 75mph.
But a lot of people will be mad cuz 150's insufficient. Ok so 175hp. Still not enough. Ok another $2000 for 200hp but its not OK for TDi or H6. Ok more mad customers. This is how it will go. So its now $15,000 prepaid & 3 years for a test box. The EJ22 & Fords will bail & go with beefed up OEM cuz of the escalation, reducing the numbers & further boosting the price. Some others bail on the high end. WBX & 100% OEM come back into fashion. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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ejimmi Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2015 Posts: 249 Location: Bellevue
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I was not aware that the Mendeola has a granny gear, a front prop drive, and a locker for 11K.
The polls are pretty telling as to what people would pay. |
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Merian Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014 Posts: 5212 Location: Orygun
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Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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have you guys any idea of the cost to make a small production run of these _________________ .... |
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pedrokrusher Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2011 Posts: 654 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:45 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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MsTaboo wrote: |
I wanted to start a new thread dedicated to the idea of an all new Syncro transaxle rather than side-tracking existing threads on Syncro transaxle failures.
The idea is to explore the possibility of developing a direct, bolt on, replacement for the original. No fancy hi/lo transfer cases, extra gears, or anything like that. A replacement that can handle higher hp/torque and heavier loads while still using the original shifting linkage, lockers, drive shaft, decouplers, etc. with a granny gear and ratios to match the front diff.
The idea is to keep it simple and the cost down.
As I said in another thread, I have no expertise to draw on, but like many others I feel the need is great and there is a market large enough to make it worthwhile. Rather than spending thousands on rebuilds that fail, a new robust transaxle!
I think that the market is also larger than just Vanagon Syncros, it could be sold for sand-rails, 4x4 buggies, etc. |
Bravo Mstaboo for starting this thread! Now we can concentrate right here the conversations about the demand of a new improved syncro teansmission. Its important to focus our discussions here and show any potential builder that there is really a demand.
I estimate that about 20 new units would be sold right away. There is a demand of at least 20 for sure. Most probably more...
Of course there is other ways to look at this, but in my mind there is 3 ways to improve the syncro transmission:
1- REBUILD SAME DESIGN WITH IMPROVED TECHNIQUES
This is where it is now. Pretty much same materials, just better techniques. The 3-4rd hub and the bearing sleeves comes to mind.
2- REBUILD WITH MUCH BETTER MATERIALS. I believe there is a way to improve the syncro transmission with some more little tweeking and better materials that will endure the heat and pressures from more powerful engines and heavier rigs... But only to a certain limit. I did not hear anything in this regard so far. This is just a way in slightly improve what is available now. No miracles here, but still better than what we have now.
3- COMPLETELY NEW BIGGER SYNCRO TRANSMISSION. Just a few inches bigger here and there where its needed. This will demand some modifications to the vanagon syncro chassis. Maybe move the front cross member forward a few inches. Maybe a modified syncro gas tank to accomodate the bigger tranny. Maybe moving the engine back an inch or two... I really wish for a 5 speed plus granny, but we may be stuck with 4 speed plus granny... Oh! And locker of course!
I know some of you will roll your eyes, so what! My intention is only to steer the discussion towards improving the syncro tranny, not to talk about Insyncro's attemps in getting in the conversation with the goal to derail it... So please don't pay attention to that...
Its impossible in my mind that someone will come up with a new custom syncro tranny for less than 10k... So i voted the 8 to 10k...
My very humble two cents worth opinion! _________________ Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598791&highlight=
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493964&highlight=speed+aap+trans
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496589&highlight=carrier+bars
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=506025 |
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Waldi Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014 Posts: 1752 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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10k for a new build trans?
Seems you don't know what you are talking about.
Buy a new car! |
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UngaWunga Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2016 Posts: 172 Location: NH
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Waldi wrote: |
10k for a new build trans?
Seems you don't know what you are talking about.
Buy a new car! |
Exactly. The only way I'd spend $5k on a replacement transaxle for my syncro would be if mine blew up, was not rebuildable, parts were not available, and the new one had a 5th overdrive gear for highway use.
$10k+ for a new gearbox? Yeah no. I'll just buy bigger tires and get mine rebuilt. |
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pedrokrusher Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2011 Posts: 654 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I would be fairly certain that at the $10k mark they'd sell 100units fairly easily. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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pedrokrusher Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2011 Posts: 654 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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jackbombay Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 2723 Location: Eastern Idaho
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Signalocity Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2012 Posts: 573
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Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I'd consider 8k to 10k if it meant a long term replacement that I didn't have to worry about. I'm sort of surprised that one one has ever scanned the case and had CAD files developed for each section. The case could be milled out of a better grade aluminum. That would allow simple upgrades like better oiling passages, alternate bearing options(cheaper, better availability and tapered options for better thrust load capabilities), ports for plumbing and sensors, and could possibly be tweaked for larger gear sets and components? It would also eliminate the scarcity of the Syncro transaxle, which in return could lower the cost of replacement parts. The bell housing could be set up for better bolt on starter options. Non locker vans could be converted and 2WD people wanting to convert would be one huge step closer to an inclusive kit that didn't involve sourcing a parts van. The case could be finned more for better cooling, it would be stronger and tolerances would be brought back in line. Some gaskets could be replaced with O-ring seals. Part of the problem would be that these cases are just getting worn out from the rebuilds. It would definitely be the cheaper and more realistic prospect to begin with. If new cases were available, new transaxles could be built. |
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pedrokrusher Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2011 Posts: 654 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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