Auto Tranny - intermittent 2nd to 3rd upshift - Rebuild

danfromsyr · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:47 am Post subject:

is all of your ATF ending up in your Differential housing?

there's a 17mm Hex plug in the side of the differential section. pull that se what color/smell pours out.. if none pours out.. it's probably ok and still just plain ole gear oil..

most/any Trans shop should be able to service the VW automatic transmission, the Trans portion is the same in all VW&Audi from 1976 thru 1991 and installed in millions of VWs.
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 8:57 am Post subject:

I don't think it is, unless it just started after working on the transmission this weekend. But i am going to check it just to be safe.

I'll post what I find.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

Terry Kay · Banned Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331

<< but why would the brake band react like that?.>>

How many miles on this trans?
Perhaps the band is worn a bit--

<<I have a question on the brake band adjustment.
Per the procedures in the Bentley, you loosen the lock nut and tighten the adjuster to 87 in/lb,>>

Your adjusting the brake band to the tune of a new transmisson's specs.

The band could be short on life, the end of the adjuster screw could be mashed a bit.

Experiment with the screw adjustemnt.
Back it out 2 turns--see what happens.
If you notice the shifting point is getting a little better, run it in another half a turn.

Your trying to make an old, worn out tranmissions shift points adjust to factory specs, which ain't gonna happen, here in the real world.

Experiment with that brake band adjustment, and see where it goes.

Before you call AAMCO , give VW a call and ask the service writer / manager where they job their transmissions out to locally.

They might be able to get you to a decent trans shop that knows the VW / Audi transmissions well close to you.

Good Luck,
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T.K.

MarkWard · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:35 am Post subject:

hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:29 am Post subject:

Checked the transmission level with everything warmed up to operating temperature and everything is kosher now as far as fluid level is concerned. Right at the top of the two markings on the stick.

On two occasions we have experienced the reverse problem where it feels like we are dragging something under the van. With several other occasions where it works properly.

Terry, I'll give your adjustment a try, see what happens. Unfortunately, the VW dealer I used to go to closed up shop. So, I'll have to hunt around for the next closest one and do some research as you suggest.

rsxsr, my next step was to pull the valve body, disassemble, clean, and re-assemble, as you suggest. All options are still on the table with this one.

I'll keep you posted as to what I find.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

Westy-Life · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:46 am Post subject:

[quote="Westy-Life"

Now for my story. I am on my second auto transmission from German Trans axles and I am still having some issues.

Over all the trans shifts great, but once it is warmed up (only once it is warmed up, not cold) I shut the van off for a minute or two. When I start it up and put it into drive (or reverse for that matter) there is a huge (4-5 seconds) lag before it engages. Once it grabs, it runs flawlessly.

Now I have checked the level several times and it is bang on. I am going to check it again tonight, as I need to run some errands and I will report back tomorrow.

Any ideas?

Cheers!
Dave[/quote]

Not to hi-jack this thread, but only hoping to help out the originator....
Anyone have any idea what could be going on with my second rebuild?

Cheers!
Dave
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86 Westfalia with 03' TDI Auto trans

MarkWard · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:28 am Post subject:

A dry CV or worn CV joint will cause that tight feeling. When you back up the loads are different on them. If the transmission was actually binding, asside from the ring and pinion, from memory drive and reverse share the same clutch pack. It is called the D and R clutch pack. That could be bad. There is a spraque type clutch and a planetary sun gear arrangement. By the time you have resealed second gear and cleaned and inspected the valve body, you should feel comfortable enough to do the automatic. They are relatively simple and can be overhauled without a lot of special tools. You need to keep everything very organized and clean.
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject:

Quick update, although no additional information on solution.

Following Terry's suggestion, I turned the 2nd Gear brake band adjuster in 1/2 turn to see how it would react.

I head back to work and on the way out of my neighborhood it shifts fine, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, very smooth and the shift points appear normal from a "seat of the pants" feeling.

I pull out onto the main road away from my house and again, up through the gears it goes as normal. Given 2 successful 1st-3rd runs, I decided to drive back to work in a round about way. I head up the street and reached the first stop light about 7 blocks from the house. Stop for about 30 seconds waiting for the light.

This time, the transmission only goes 1st - 2nd. And that is the way it behaves the rest of the way to work. No shift from 2nd - 3rd.

Definitely weird from my point of view. But this may be a normal symptom of an automatic with a problem.

I received an email back from German transaxle, they will sell me a rebuilt transmission, w/o final drive for $630 + $200 core, no warranty, plus shipping. For $500 more and I ship my transmission and final drive to them. They will reseal the final drive and install a rebuilt transmission, then ship it back to me, with a 6 month warranty. Not so sure I like that deal, but still contemplating it.

Further investigation is underway on sources for diagnostics/rebuilding.

Joe
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

MarkWard · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject:

The back to back seals in the differential are a pain. There are shims between the automatic section and the diff that need to be set as well. I'd go the route of having the entire job done. The governor is also located in the differential. There is a seal way down in side that is a bugger to replace if you can find it. I'd vote for the complete reman/reseal. They will want to rebuild the torque convertor. A lot of yuck ends up in them. 6 month warranty seems like enough if you put some miles on it. Automatics work or they don't. Many local transmission shops could overhaul the automatic section, but may not have access to hard parts only steels, fibers and seals. You may have a hard part failure. Remember when you get it back, you have added to the overall capacity of the automatic section by adding the after market cooler. You can't go by the book for fluid amounts.
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject:

So, I called around to my local VW dealer and spoke with the service manager. They gave me the answer that I received earlier from the VW shop. If the transmission has an issue, they just pull it and get a new one from VW. Obviously, they were referring to newer VW's and not an 89 Carat.

Sorry I didn't provide this earlier, but the vehicle has 148K on it. From my reading, this isn't high mileage for the automatics.

I really have no history for this van, for all I know it could have sat without being driven for a number of years prior to me getting it. As the person I bought it from indicated he purchased it from an estate sale.

I guess for me, I have more time than money. So, I'll probably be rebuilding it myself. In the end, the transmission will work correctly or it won't, but I'll have learned quite a bit in the process.

Thanks everyone, I'll keep you posted.

Joe
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

MarkWard · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject:

If you flat tow and Automatic VW/Audi from that era with the engine off, you can burn up the transmission beyond what is reasonable to repair in a short time. I have seen towing companies pull in vehicles with no start problems only to find when we got the engine running the transmission was shot. The sun and planetary gears can melt from lack of lubrication. If you flat tow your vanagon, you need to have the engine running or the axles disconnected. If you don't know the history of the vehicle, someone may have flat towed it once. For the age and mileage, I would think it was more than time to change the apply pistons and the fibers at minimum.
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject:

Here are a few of images from the work thus far:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If anyone wants to check out the rest of the images and a write up from my work on this, it can be found at:

http://www.josephpugh.com/?p=95
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:02 am Post subject:

A small update for those who were watching this thread.

To those who suggested I check the final drive fluid level. Everything there was kosher.

I took the van to 2 transmission shops that indicated they had knowledge on rebuilding these transmissions. Both indicated basically the same thing. Seals worn or split on the direct/reverse piston.

I had been considering my options leading up to this. So, I've decided to rebuild the transmission.

At this point the transmission is removed. I must say, that is a pretty easy procedure compared to other transmissions I've pulled. It is a good thing I did pull the transmission, as I had a pretty wicked torque converter seal leak developing.

Today I'll be heading to the transmission parts store to drop off my torque converter to be rebuilt. I'm a bit concerned as there is a significant groove in the sealing surface. We'll see what they have to say.

I'll also be picking up the transmission rebuild kit including new steels, pistons, and brake band.

I plan to document the process in as much detail as possible and post some images and write up in this thread.

Thanks to everyone who provided suggestions.

Joe
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

JeffRobenolt · Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:12 am Post subject:

keep us posted.

It would be nice to find a Audi 5000 turbo trans so you could get a 4 pinion planetary and the clutch packs hold one more disc.

There was a good post on it,

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=253381&highlight=

On the bottom of page one he talks about " make sure that you have the newer diaphragm spring, shown on the right, in there.
The lower diaphragm spring is broken and caused the clutch pack to slip and burn.

The right part number is on the plastic bag, labelled as "lockwasher."Ha! "

Part # 010 323 229 D
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:29 am Post subject:

I would really like to find one of the Audi transmissions from that thread.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any. But, I have located a manual transmission donor van, just in case.

I'll keep you posted.

Joe
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

MarkWard · Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:23 am Post subject:

If the Torque convertor is not going to replace the support, these work great for worn seal surfaces. http://www.worldpath.net/~thompson/acb/seal/speedi.htm
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:48 am Post subject:

I've been progressing on the rebuild of the transmission steadily.

Good news on the torque converter. They were able to remove the old sealing flange and replace it. The work was very well done at a reasonable cost.

During the disassembly, I inspected parts and photographed the process to aid in the re-assembly. I didn't find anything drastically out the ordinary. All the piston seals were still pliable and intact. The only difference I did find was that the piston seal on the forward piston was coated with the fine "debris" from the clutch disks.

The master rebuild kit I received, had everything needed for the rebuild but was short two outer spline splates (steels) and two inner spline plates (clutches). A nice find in the kit was all of the seals for the final drive (back to back, drive flange, and torque converter), so the final drive is going to be re-sealed as part of this project.

Some of you may be wondering how much money I have invested so far in the rebuild. Here is the listing of parts and prices:

1. Master Rebuild kit, Part # K4000D - $145
2. Second Gear Brake Band - $11.50
3. Additional Steels and Clutches (2 each) - $13.50
4. Bushing Kit - $19.00
5. Bushing Installation - $20
6. R&R torque converter - $145
7. Miscellaneous Tools and Assembly products - $45

Total thus far: $399

I estimate I'll probably have about $450 in the rebuild when it is all said and done with fluids, etc.

Up to this point, I've completed the following on the re-assembly:

All parts cleaned and inner spline plates soaked in ATF for specified amount of time prior to installation.

1. Replaced piston, inner spline plates, and outer spline plates on forward clutch assembly.
2. Replaced piston, inner spline plates, and outer spline plates on direct/reverse clutch assembly. Checked end-play for correct tolerances. Replaced bushing.
3. Replaced small bushing in end of oil pump and rings. Replaced bushing on small gear.
4. Replaced both bushings in double sun gear.
5. Replaced torque converter bushing.

The 1st/Reverse pistion will be replaced along with the associated inner and outer spline plates as the transmission is re-assembled.

I have found some interesting information on my transmission while working on this. My valve body is stamped with FFB, rather than FFA which is specified for my model of transmission. My first thoughts are that this is part of the iterations a valve body goes through during the life of a transmission. Has anyone heard or seen this in the later model (89, etc.) 090 automatics?

I plan to have the transmission completed this weekend and re-attached to the final drive by early next week. So, I should be driving again by next weekend.
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

hatchb4ck · Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject:

I am back to the point of installing the transmission back into the van following the rebuild and came up against an issue that I am trying to address.

Even though I ensure the torque converter is seated properly. The depth from the differential to engine flange and the back of the torque converter is 10.14mm which per the bentley is the appropriate depth. Yet as I draw up the nuts on the bottom of the engine, the torque converter stops spinning freely.

When this occured, it turns out that the "button" on the back of the torque converter is sticking in the "pilot" hole in the flex plate/crank shaft.

I have ensured that the torque converter has not slipped off the shafts.

Has anyone seen this before? If so, any suggestions on how to ensure that it doesn't bind?

So far, everything else has gone as expected.

Thanks for any thoughts on this particular issue.

Joe
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com

MarkWard · Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:22 am Post subject:

It is your original torque convertor rebuilt or a reman? What point of the install are you at? Would it be possible to remove the torque convertor from the trans and see how it fits up to the flex plate? Also, it is very important to index the torque convertor bolt holes with the flex plate holes. You need to also have the flex plate at a point where you can start the first bolt. Don't tighten them until you have all the bolts started.
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hatchb4ck · Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:59 am Post subject:

I thought about indexing the bolt holes as one of the possibilities. But, I was trying to ensure the torque converter spun freely as I drew the bolts up on the transmission/engine.

The torque converter is the original that was rebuilt.

Shouldn't the torque converter be able to spin freely even when the bolts and nuts for the transmission to engine mating are drawn up tight? Perhaps this is where my confusing is coming from?

I'm going to check the torque converter movement on the flex plate again and try to wire the torque converter in tighter so it doesn't move at all.

Joe.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello

www.josephpugh.com


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