Auto Tranny - intermittent 2nd to 3rd upshift - Rebuild

[Westy-Life]

You know Joe, I been thinking about it some more, and it seems to me the TC will spin once I have the tranny and engine mated as it should so you can put the three TC to flex plate bolts in. But I don't think it "spins" freely, rather it moves as I nudge it with a screw driver.

Does that make sense, or seem more like what your seeing?

When you are bringing the trans and engine together, do have to use the bolts to draw them together, is there resistance that only tightening the bolts will overcome? Will they go together just by wiggling the trans and pushing?

Cheers!
Dave
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86 Westfalia with 03' TDI Auto trans

[MarkWard]

From memory, it was important on some VW Audi automatics to have the bolt holes lined up because you could not spin the torque convertor 360 degrees trans bolted up. I have also seen torque convertors stick to the engine, so that nub is a close tolerance. Rather than fight it, I would back up and see how the torque convertor fits the flex plate without the transmission. You won't hurt anything by pulling the torque convertor off the support. Then you will know the hang up, but you need to have the holes aligned as close as possible anyhow. Regards
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[hatchb4ck]

Well, I looked at the torque converter and flex plate again this morning. Everything looks to check out.

I wired it in very tightly so it wouldn't move at all in the differential as I lifted the trans.

Here is the pictures showing the install.

At this point, the torque converter is free.

At this point, the torque converter still turns but I can feel it dragging on the flex plate. Any tighter and the engine turns when I try to turn the torque converter.

How much space, at this point, should there be between the flex plate and the torque converter. Should they be touching? Or should there be space that is closed when the torque converter bolts are tightened.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[Westy-Life]

Once you have the TC bolts tightened there should be no space between it and the flex plate.

I am wondering if your wiring up the TC when you install is what is causing the nose of the TC to go into the flex plate crooked? If it is not tied up, then it can wiggle a bit so that it sits in that tight fitting hole just right.
Can you give that a try?

I BTW have never tied up the TC, I make sure it is all the way on the trans shaft and lift the trans into place. Generally your trans will be tilted a bit back.

Cheers!
Dave
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86 Westfalia with 03' TDI Auto trans

[MarkWard]

Once the torque convertor is against the flex plate and bolted tight, turning the torque convertor is supposed to turn the engine. What floats are the internals of the torque convertor. When you put the torque convertor on to the transmission. There are three sets of splines that need to engage. The turbine shaft, the pump shaft and the stator shaft support. It is a feel thing. Sort of like tumblers on a combination lock. Also, you need to be careful with the steel rings on the turbine shaft. They can get hung installing the turbine shaft.
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[hatchb4ck]

Actually, I have tried it both ways.

I'm starting to think that as long as the torque converter spins freely until it meets the flex plate, everything is kosher.

It makes sense that once the two are sandwiched together, they wouldn't move freely, which is the case with this.

You mention once the torque converter bolts are installed the flex plate and torque converter are tight together. But what about before that? Should there be a space that the torque converter bolts close up? Or in some cases do these tighten up once mounted, thus the need for indexing the bolts before hand.

Is the bentley wrong on how deep the torque converter should sit when installed properly? Mine is dead on with the bentley.

There appears to be some variation in whether or not the torque converter should spin freely when the trans is bolted up fully.

I'll check the depth on my flex plate, although it isn't warped from checking it last night.

Thanks for all the suggestions, work carries on here trying to ensure that it is installed correctly.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[MarkWard]

Sorry it has been too many years. I remember you should be able to move the torque convertor independent of the flex plate with the transmission installed, you just might not be able to do a complete turn. It sounds like the torque convertor is not fully installed into the transmission. I am not familiar with the measurement Bentley talks about. There is a picture of the installation of the pump shaft and turbine shaft in the manual to show them completely installed correctly.
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[hatchb4ck]

The turbine and pump shafts are installed correctly. The turbine shaft is basically flush with the stator support shaft and only the splines are showing on the pump shaft. I have checked, by hand that the shaft is seated and that it turns the pump with little effort.

The measurement I am referring to in the bentley is found on page 37.5, bottom right under the heading: "Automatic Transmission, installing (Except transmission 090 - code letters NH).

It states:

"When attaching transmission to engine, torque converter must be fully seated on one-way clutch support (arrow) and can be turned by hand. When converter is properly seated, a=10mm (3/8 in.)"

Dimension "a" is the distance between the mounting flange on the differential and the back of the torque converter near the "button". Mine measures out to 10.14mm.

Basically, can anyone indicate whether or not their should be any play between the torque converter and the flex plate?

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[MarkWard]

As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe the two should "bind". You mentioned having the seal support replaced, but it is your original torque convertor? I've never made the measurement you are talking about. Is there a plus or minus spec? I know you don't want to take the transmission back down, but you need to determine if it is the snout hanging up or if the torque convertor is not fully seated in the transmisson. Or if the torque convertor repair has somehow altered the dimensions. Again from memory, I recall when removing the transmission, I'd remove the flexplate bolts and the torque convertor could be slipped back away from the flex plate. I would not force it. If you take the trans back down and see how it fits against the flex plate, you can eliminate that as the culprit. If there is a some rust or a bugger, you can clean it up. This also gives you a second chance to be sure the torque convertor is fully seated on the stator support. This should bump your question. I don't have one to measure. Sorry
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[hatchb4ck]

Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions on this recent hurdle in the project to get my van back on the road.

I spoke with a couple of Vanagon shops today (Van Cafe and German Transaxle) concerning this issue. Both were in agreement with your suggestions that it should continue to spin freely even when the transmissions and engine are fully mated together.

So, I headed back out to determine what the issue was with the binding. After some digging and a bit of testing, it turns out it was the "button" on the back of the torque converter binding in the pilot hole.

I was able to get the torque converter to finally go into place cleanly by lightly threading the bolts and evening it out. It only took a few turns to get the torque converter to settle into place. After that, I removed the bolts and checked that it now spun freely, which it did.

The clearance between the pilot hole and the "button" is much closer than I would have expected it to be. After that, the transmission and engine slid the rest of the way together easily.

After torquing the mounting bolts and nuts down accordingly, my friend and I proceeded to finish up the with reinstallation of the starter and the external cooler. This was followed by the cv axles. Unfortunately, one of the heads on the cv bolts decided it didn't want to torque to the proper specification and stripped out. So, tomorrow I will locate the proper bolts (gonna replace them all since I'm this far) and finish up the installation.

I'm pretty stoked to see if my work will pay off. Everything has been pretty straight forward with very little unexpected issues. Thanks to all those who provided suggestions and insight as I worked on this rebuild.

I'll follow up with a status report on how the rebuild turned out this weekend after I put a few hundred miles on the van to test out the transmission.

Again, thanks to everyone, especially rsxsr, westy-life, itzdstz, terry kay, and Ken at German transaxle for fielding my questions and providing excellent insight.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[MarkWard]

I aplaud your effort and taking the time to ask questions when needed. Honestly, for the do it yourselfer, the automatics are more easily repaired than the manual transmission. There are no special tools or jigs required. The problem is availability of hard parts for automatics and valve body overhaul parts. Also, you need to install the automatic to see if you did everything right. A manual transmission you can test as you assemble it. There are some compressed air tests you can do on the automatics, but the final test is your road test. Good luck.
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[hatchb4ck]

Update, and it's bad news.

While working through the reassembly, I came to the point where I was ready to torque the torque converter bolts. Everything had been moving freely so I didn't think anything of it. So, I find the the first bolt is already lined up and torque it down. Next, I try to turn the engine over to line up the second bolt and it stops. Now this isn't the spongy feeling of rolling through a compression cycle, it is a hard stop with a distinct metal on metal feeling. So, I attempt to move the engine the other way and it stops hard. Overall, I would say there was 40* of rotation available.

I start wondering what the problem could be. I back the transmission out a few millimeters and it frees up but there is a distinct metal on metal ting coming out of the torque converter when I turn it. I'm starting to think something isn't right inside the torque converter.

I'm taking it back today to have it looked at by the rebuild shop.

I'll let you know how it goes.

To be honest, I am losing my patience with Vanagon's and their "quirks". I understand they are old and particular. I haven't given up yet, but man this is frustrating.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[MarkWard]

Joe, did you turn the torque convertor while the transmission was out? It should spin with only the resistance of the pump, turbine shaft, and stator shaft. By moving the transmission away from the engine a slight bit frees it up seems like an odd diagnosis. How many flex plate bolts? Some have 3. Some have 4. Did you leave a flex plate bolt loose? Are they the correct bolts? I recommend take a moment to catch your breath and think through your steps before getting too far in. While I appreciate your frustration, experience comes from experience. You are on a learning curve and will hit some bumps and in cases walls. Sorry. mark
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[hatchb4ck]

I'm glad you asked that rsxsr.

My first inclination was that a torque converter bolt was dragging or hitting. The bolts I am using are the ones that came out of the torque converter when I removed it initially.

To see if the bolts were or were not hitting the engine case, I mounted the torque converter to the flex plate without the transmission. Fully installed the bolts and spun the engine. Nothing was touching and it moved freely.

Yet, when I put the torque converter into the transmission and spin it in one direction (counter clock-wise, when looking at the torque converter from the back of the van) it spins freely, the other way, it catches and starts spinning the differential/trans.

I spoke with the gentleman at the trans supply who had my torque converter rebuilt and he asked about the one way clutch. From my understanding the Vanagon torque converters have this so would it be correct to spin freely in only one direction?

I still think that once installed there is still something wrong inside that converter. I'm going to go ahead and pull the flex plate to make sure nothing happened to the engine case behind it.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[hatchb4ck]

Interesting findings when inspecting the torque converter more closely.

Over lunch today, I decided to do some deeper investigation into this torque converter as it is currently a suspect part following it's rebuild and I wanted to get some additional knowledge. So, I called up Ken at German Transaxle to discuss (I highly recommend him and his company if you need any assistance with these automatics, either just to ask questions or order his products).

Just a reminder, this torque converter was rebuilt locally here in the Kansas City area.

While on the phone with him, he took the time to pull out a torque converter so that we could do some comparative measurements. This resulted in some interesting findings.

First we measured from the top of the sealing flange on the torque converter to the top of the turbine shaft spline flange inside the torque converter. After a few different measurements to verify results, it turned out that the distance between the top of the sealing flange to the top of the turbine shaft spline flange on my torque converter was about 4mm greater than his.

Next we measured from the top of the turbine shaft spline flange inside the torque converter to the top of the pump shaft spline flange inside the torque converter. These were the same.

We both found this to be interesting, so we measured the overall depth of the torque converter. After laying the torque converters, sealing flange down, on a flat surface, we measured from the mounting tabs to the flat surface. At all points mine was 4 mm wider than his.

Following this, on the differential, we measured from the top of the stator shaft to its base and they were the same, followed by the top of the stator shaft to the sealing surface. Again, the same.

Now, maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but if the person who rebuilt my torque converter (who probably isn't familiar with VW's) rebuilt it wider than it should have been, that would explain a lot of what I experienced throughout the process of trying to install the transmission. From the early binding to the other issues.

So, I've ordered up a rebuilt torque converter from German Transaxle and hopefully it will be here Monday.


All of this leads to one other question. Did I just damage my flex plate? Or can it flex a bit before taking damage. I am going to pull it and take a look behind it to make sure there aren't any drag marks for the torque converter mounting bolts or other damage. While it is out, I will be checking it for damage as well.

If anyone has other thoughts on things I should check, please go ahead and post them.

Thanks
Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[hatchb4ck]

I still have some questions floating around in my head concerning the torque converter fitment.

Basically, I'm trying to reason out where the pressure points would be with a torgue converter that is too deep. Because I don't see any marks inside the torque converter or on any of the shafts that would indicate undue pressures being applied. Unless the pressure is between the base of the stator shaft and the crank shaft, basically squeezing the torque converter in between the two when fully mounted. Which would cause the internals of the torque converter to change position and bind.

Does anyone have any insight or thoughts on that?

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[hatchb4ck]

Researching my previously posted question this evening. I believe I have been able to answer that question and a few others that were on my mind following the issues I found with respect to the torque converter being too deep.

First, with respect to the pressure points between the differential, torque converter, flex plate, and crankshaft when installing a torque converter that is too deep. I took a few more measurements to determine if the stator shaft or turbine shaft were bottoming out inside the torque converter. Based on my measurements, no this was not the case.

The depth of the stator shaft to its base is a few hundredths of millimeters over 49 mm. The depth of the torque converter sealing flange to the brass "bushing/shim" within the torque converter where this shaft would touch is 55mm on the torque converter I currently have. This indicates that when the differential is tightened up against the engine, the torque converter sealing flange is against the base of the stator shaft before the shaft reaches the brass "bushing/shim".

The depth of brass "bushing/shim" at the base of the turbine shaft splined flange is approximately the same so the turbine shaft would not have bottomed out within the torque converter either.

Next, I measured the height of the "button" on the back of the torque converter. This was just a few hundredths under 12 mm. I then checked the depth of the pilot hole in the flex plate to the start of the threads that the removal screw goes into. This depth was 14mm. So, even if the back of the torque converter around the "button" sat right on the flex plate bolts, it wouldn't bottom out and create a pressure point.

Next, I wanted to see if this area around the button even touched the bolts when the torque converter was installed. To check this, I but a few millimeter thick layer of grease around the pilot hole on the flex plate and installed the torque converter. Then removed it. No grease was present on the torque converter. So when installed, there is a few millimeters of clearance between the back of the torque converter and the flex plate bolts.

I continued my research by performing a closer inspection of the case behind the fly wheel looking for any area where a torque converter bolt that wasn't tightened in (I actually did this, my mistake I realize) may have rubbed against the case. Which would have caused the limitation of motion I experienced.

I found two spots where some scuffing occured.

The first is at about the 7-7:30 position when looking at the flex plate side of the engine. There was a spot that had been scuffed shiny by the bolt (although the bolt shows no marking or scraping on it). When I say scuffed, there is no discernable groves, but the engine is missing its patina in this spot.

The second was on the TDC Sensor at the 10-11 o'clock position when looking at the engine from the same perspective. There was a very slight rubbing on the outer edge of the highest part of this sensor. Again, this was identified because it was shiny verses the rest of the sensors dull patina.

From what I can see, after thoroughly inspecting the rest of the area around the flex plate, these are the only two spots where a bolt had come in contact with the engine case when I rotated the engine by hand.

Following these discoveries, I wanted to determine exactly how much the bolt would have to stick out or the flex plate flex to allow this to happen. I checked the depth from the mounting surface of the flex plate to the area where the scuffs occured. This measured about 13 mm to both. I then measured the height of the bolt head. This was 7 mm. So, for the bolt to have scuffed the case in this area, the difference of 6 mm would have had to been made up by the flex of the flex plate due to the pressure from the torque converter being to deep and the bolt not being threaded in all the way. It is my estimate, given how far the bolt was threaded out, that the flex plate would have been flexing about 2-3mm.

If you've read this far, your probably wondering the same thing I am. How much flex can the flex plate withstand before damage occurs? I checked that it maintained the same height from the engine throughout it's rotation. But, did this flexing weaken the rivets that hold the outer stamped steel part of the flex plate to the inner mounting area?

In answer to the question of where the pressure points were. From my analysis, they were the mounting tabs on the flex plate/torque converter and the torgue converter sealing neck/base of the stator shaft.

If anyone has any thoughts on this finding or the flex plate question, please post them.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[Terry Kay]

Is the flex pale running true on the back of the engine?

It sure sounds like it's warped --or something wild like that.
anything is possible, and this for sure would be an easy solution.
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T.K.

[hatchb4ck]

I checked the flex plate. The measurements around the edges show that they are the same all the way around. So, to me it doesn't seem warped.

Hopefully, I'll have more information on Monday when the second torque converter comes in from German Transaxle.

I am very interested to check the measurements on it verses the one I had rebuilt locally.

I'm thinking about taking them both to the place I had rebuild the original one to show them the differences and see if I can get some money back that was spent on the original rebuild. I do realize that this is kind of a "cheap" action on my part. But, definitely worth doing if for no other reason than letting them know exactly what happened with their rebuild.

Joe
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1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[Terry Kay]

If the connverter is built wrong why feel bad?

Don't get all wound up till ya see the other converter Joe---

And I'd trial fit the one your getting first to see if in fact there is a difference.

Then I'd make mention of it and ask for a kick back.
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T.K.