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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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 Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Buggeee wrote: |
| Wow Bob that is absolutely fascinating. And written in a way that I will likely retain it. And useful practical information. Thank you for the path that just appeared in the neurons in my head. |
FYI, Bob Hoover passed away a while ago, but you can still find a collection of his writings if you do an internet search for "Sermons of Bob Hoover".
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: Re: End Play |
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| I mesure the bearing in the case then the flywheel on the crank to figure my thrust stack to start with. usualy withen .002 of where I want it. |
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Buggeee
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016
Posts: 4421
Location: Stuck in Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bob Hoover wrote: |
| Bashr52 wrote: |
| For those of you that regulary set the endplay on the crank prior to install, do you then remove the flywheel and install, or install it as a complete assembly with everything already torqued down? Just curious as if the flywheel seal seats fully when the two halves go together. I think I am going to start doing it this way. How do you hold the crank when torquing the nut on? |
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You don't torque the nut to its full value. To set end-play all you need do is insure that flywheel is flush to the crankshaft nut is tight -- mebbe 10 ft/lb or so.
Record the end-play (which you should have done anyway).
After the crankcase halves have been married and the fasteners torqued to spec, REMOVE the flywheel and use the seal-seater tool to press the seal into place. Now put the flywheel back on and run-up the gland-nut. Set the assembly on the floor, install your anti-torque bar to the flywheel, and torque the gland-nut to spec. (about 217 ft/lb) Now use one of the other methods to measure end-play and compare the reading to what you've recorded. The should be the same.
So where did all that torque go? Well, it's obvious it didn't go into the flywheel or crank since the end-play has not changed. And the only thing left is the gland-nut. So what's going on here?
The gland nut (and a stock crankshaft) is mild steel. The torque serves to distort the THREADS in both the crank and the gland-nut. In theory, that amount of distortion is enough to withstand the worse-case load(s) that might cause the nut to loosen.
While that thought is fresh in your mind lemme offer a warning. Some after-market retailers offer gland-nuts made from high-strength steels, such as 4130, citing the fact that alloy is about four times as strong as the mild steel in the stock gland-nut.
Wow! Four times stronger! And bigger is always better, right?
Wrong. If you use an alloy steel gland-nut it had better be going into an allow steel crankshaft. Because if it ain't, all that torque is going to go into the threads in the crankshaft... and will strip them out. Maybe not the first time, but eventually they'll let go. And leave you with a crankshaft that's nothing more than a piece of junk.
So why do they even sell high-alloy gland-nuts? Because there are a lot of high-allow crankshafts out there!
In fact, let's turn the equation around. Let's say you've got one of them Chinese strokers. It's made out of 4340 and nitrided, meaning you've got a crank that is virtually indestructable. Now you want to attach the flywheel. If you use a STOCK gland-nut all of that torque is going to appear in its threads... and strip them out. Here again, it may not happen the first time but it WILL happen because 4340 is about four times stronger than the mild steel used for the gland nut. Indeed, the nut is liable to fail just from popping the clutch.
Big mystery, right? New engine, everything done by the book but the first time you put the hammer down your world turns to shit. Relax; we can fix it. All you gotta do is buy a gland-nut made of high-strength steel and you're back in business, unlike the guy who used a high-strength gland-nut in a mild steel crank, who is going to have to replace the crankshaft now that the threads are stripped.
The message here is pretty simple: the gland-nut and crankshaft must be COMPATIBLE. If you got an alloy crank then you need an alloy gland-nut; stock crank, use a stock gland nut.
-Bob Hoover |
Wow Bob that is absolutely fascinating. And written in a way that I will likely retain it. And useful practical information. Thank you for the path that just appeared in the neurons in my head.
_________________
1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
| SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
| Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
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Tim Donahoe
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: End Play |
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Read this entire thread. You won't need a video. It's actually pretty easy. Just make sure you check end play with three shims (put oil on them), and no flywheel seal installed. Torque the gland nut to at least 100 ft. lbs.
Once you attach the tool to the hole where the top starter bolt normally goes, you'll see how it works. Just use two screwdrivers to pry back on the crank pulley, then set the tip of the tool's bottom set screw so that it touches the flywheel's flat surface. At this point, use two large screwdrivers to pry the flywheel back. Then, with your feeler gauges, check out the space between the flywheel surface and the end of the set screw on the tool.
You don't have to pry like an ape. Just get it to move.
Tim
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mochito441
Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2016
Posts: 71
Location: california
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: End Play |
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| I am surprised not to find any videos on youtube on how to use this tool |
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Max Welton
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003
Posts: 10697
Location: Black Forest, CO
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Bob Hoover
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| catbug wrote: |
| What would happend if you only put 2 shims in to get the right clearance ? |
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I've seen a couple of engines that had only two. One of them was always dished and worn to a feather-edge. In each case the owner said they'd just had the clutch replaced; that the end-play was adjusted as part of the clutch job.
Apparently the use of three shims allows the wear to be distributed across all three... or perhaps the wear is concentrated on the 'free' shim in the middle. But those are just guesses. The manual calls for three and that's what I use, although in one case I used four and it seemed to work as well as three.
Most guys who do a lot of engines have a pretty good stock of shims on hand and should never have to resort to using four. But if you're caught away from your shop you may have to do whatever it takes to get the thing back on the road.
-Bob Hoover |
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catbug
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2007
Posts: 231
Location: clovis nm
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| What would happend if you only put 2 shims in to get the right clearance ? |
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Bob Hoover
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bashr52 wrote: |
| For those of you that regulary set the endplay on the crank prior to install, do you then remove the flywheel and install, or install it as a complete assembly with everything already torqued down? Just curious as if the flywheel seal seats fully when the two halves go together. I think I am going to start doing it this way. How do you hold the crank when torquing the nut on? |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't torque the nut to its full value. To set end-play all you need do is insure that flywheel is flush to the crankshaft nut is tight -- mebbe 10 ft/lb or so.
Record the end-play (which you should have done anyway).
After the crankcase halves have been married and the fasteners torqued to spec, REMOVE the flywheel and use the seal-seater tool to press the seal into place. Now put the flywheel back on and run-up the gland-nut. Set the assembly on the floor, install your anti-torque bar to the flywheel, and torque the gland-nut to spec. (about 217 ft/lb) Now use one of the other methods to measure end-play and compare the reading to what you've recorded. The should be the same.
So where did all that torque go? Well, it's obvious it didn't go into the flywheel or crank since the end-play has not changed. And the only thing left is the gland-nut. So what's going on here?
The gland nut (and a stock crankshaft) is mild steel. The torque serves to distort the THREADS in both the crank and the gland-nut. In theory, that amount of distortion is enough to withstand the worse-case load(s) that might cause the nut to loosen.
While that thought is fresh in your mind lemme offer a warning. Some after-market retailers offer gland-nuts made from high-strength steels, such as 4130, citing the fact that alloy is about four times as strong as the mild steel in the stock gland-nut.
Wow! Four times stronger! And bigger is always better, right?
Wrong. If you use an alloy steel gland-nut it had better be going into an allow steel crankshaft. Because if it ain't, all that torque is going to go into the threads in the crankshaft... and will strip them out. Maybe not the first time, but eventually they'll let go. And leave you with a crankshaft that's nothing more than a piece of junk.
So why do they even sell high-alloy gland-nuts? Because there are a lot of high-allow crankshafts out there!
In fact, let's turn the equation around. Let's say you've got one of them Chinese strokers. It's made out of 4340 and nitrided, meaning you've got a crank that is virtually indestructable. Now you want to attach the flywheel. If you use a STOCK gland-nut all of that torque is going to appear in its threads... and strip them out. Here again, it may not happen the first time but it WILL happen because 4340 is about four times stronger than the mild steel used for the gland nut. Indeed, the nut is liable to fail just from popping the clutch.
Big mystery, right? New engine, everything done by the book but the first time you put the hammer down your world turns to shit. Relax; we can fix it. All you gotta do is buy a gland-nut made of high-strength steel and you're back in business, unlike the guy who used a high-strength gland-nut in a mild steel crank, who is going to have to replace the crankshaft now that the threads are stripped.
The message here is pretty simple: the gland-nut and crankshaft must be COMPATIBLE. If you got an alloy crank then you need an alloy gland-nut; stock crank, use a stock gland nut.
-Bob Hoover |
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mnussbau
Samba Member
Joined: August 26, 2006
Posts: 4589
Location: Central Maryland
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
I tore a Gex engine down a couple weeks ago, and it was so screwed up on end play. It not only had the o-ring in the flywheel, but it had the steel gasket in it. The end play was way off. The case had been align bored 2.5 mm, and the thrust had been cut 2.5mm. The rear main looked like it was custom made.
And this was a brand new engine that had never turned a wheel.
One cylinder had never fired.
This engine caught fire and burned. |
LOL!  That's too funny, the way you worded that...though I feel bad that the poor customer lost his engine. I hope GEX covered it under warranty, though the fact that you got it probably means they didn't...
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Mike
Sold my sedan
Parts... |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:50 am Post subject: |
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I hate to tell people this, but if the end play was set properly when the engine was built originally, that if the end play you measure has increased, it rarely can be reset.
Most end play that shows up in an older engine, is wear in the case, and not in the flywheel, crank, or shims.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Bashr52
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006
Posts: 5666
Location: On an island in VA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| For those of you that regulary set the endplay on the crank prior to install, do you then remove the flywheel and install, or install it as a complete assembly with everything already torqued down? Just curious as if the flywheel seal seats fully when the two halves go together. I think I am going to start doing it this way. How do you hold the crank when torquing the nut on? |
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Bob Hoover
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Russ Wolfe"]
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.
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Good for you. The method you've described is in fact the method most commonly used by factory-trained mechanics when they are ASSEMBLING an engine.
When the engine is NOT torn down, as when replacing the clutch disk, the most appropriate method is to use a dial indicator or a 'bolt jig' and feeler gauges.
This is another case where Conventional Wisdom, that lovely stuff...  is dead wrong, as in adjusting your valves, adjusting fan-belt tension and so on. But try explaining that to all the 'experts' out there and see what you get for your trouble
-Bob Hoover |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76941
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
| You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges. |
That's how I do it.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I tore a Gex engine down a couple weeks ago, and it was so screwed up on end play. It not only had the o-ring in the flywheel, but it had the steel gasket in it. The end play was way off. The case had been align bored 2.5 mm, and the thrust had been cut 2.5mm. The rear main looked like it was custom made.
And this was a brand new engine that had never turned a wheel.
One cylinder had never fired.
This engine caught fire and burned.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Turborail
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2005
Posts: 5
Location: West Valley City Utah USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
I tear a lot of VW engines down. I try to keep the shims that come out with the crankshaft. Over the years, I have found that the shims go with the crankshaft.
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And I have come across many flywheels that are machined different, therefore requiring different shims to set endplay when the crank was not changed. |
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bon2198
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2008
Posts: 1969
Location: Nashville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
I tear a lot of VW engines down. I try to keep the shims that come out with the crankshaft. Over the years, I have found that the shims go with the crankshaft.
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.
I also have a stack of shims, that I have collected over the years. And the difference between 1600 shims and 40hp shims is the inside diameter. |
thanks for the tip Russ.... i have not built many vw engines, just fix mine when it breaks. so hopefully my end play is good. if not, to the local VW shop i'll be a going....
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
"It's better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you are not"
At the end of the day it's YOUR car so do what YOU want to it. |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I tear a lot of VW engines down. I try to keep the shims that come out with the crankshaft. Over the years, I have found that the shims go with the crankshaft.
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.
I also have a stack of shims, that I have collected over the years. And the difference between 1600 shims and 40hp shims is the inside diameter.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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bon2198
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2008
Posts: 1969
Location: Nashville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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ok, this might be a stupid question. but with the End Play checker tool. is there a certain place you need to put that set screw, looking at the pictures it seams you can set it wherever you want so the feeler guage would fit perfectly. am i missing something?
wait, re-reading a post from neil above i think i understand now. forgot about the taping part. DUH!!!!!!!!!! 
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
"It's better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you are not"
At the end of the day it's YOUR car so do what YOU want to it. |
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bon2198
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2008
Posts: 1969
Location: Nashville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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thank you so much Max this is really a big big help. i have the oil seal installation tool (used to have to change these a lot when i was a generator mechanic on diesel engines), and i have read the bob hoover write up, but your explanation and pictures are going to help me out BIG TIME!!!!! thank you so much for taking the time to go and take pictures you didn't have, i really really appreciate it!!!!! if your ever near tampa i owe you some drinks!!!!!!!!
kb
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
"It's better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you are not"
At the end of the day it's YOUR car so do what YOU want to it. |
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