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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:07 pm Post subject: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs dull? |
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Saw the GoWesty LED bulb set for $37:
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23483&category_id=207&category_parent_id=
And, thought I'd try brightening things up inside. So, I pulled the bulb out of the driver's side door, (what kind of weird contraption is that? I don't remember any light in any car I've ever had having the entire assembly pop out when removing the bulb!) to see if I can find the LED bulb at Lordco and/or CT (anyone already try this and get lucky? Are they cheaper or more $$ here) and noticed it looked like the bulb from my car.
I went to the spare I have in my car (dumb packages always come in 2's so you have to store them forever) and realized it was the same type of bulb, but the Vanagon one was a lot bigger. WHY does/is the inside of my car so much brighter than the inside of my bus when the car's bulb is smaller and the single bulb in there lights up the car not bad? It can't be the bulb, is it the cover?
Oh, and do I just *pull* on the Vanagon's kitchen light the same way I popped out the passenger side one? I saw that on one of the gowesty videos for dummies (perfect for me! LOL). If it's in the manual, not to worry, I'll read that before pulling it apart, don't want to break it!
Thanks for reading!
tam
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic
Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885 |
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syncromike
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2011
Posts: 660
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
| (what kind of weird contraption is that? I don't remember any light in any car I've ever had having the entire assembly pop out when removing the bulb!) |
Simplistic and efficient Beetle engineering at its finest... 
_________________
_____________________
'91 Syncro w/ Country Homes PopTop |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7916
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
| WHY does/is the inside of my car so much brighter than the inside of my bus when the car's bulb is smaller and the single bulb in there lights up the car not bad? It can't be the bulb, is it the cover? |
Incandescents produce a yellow glow. Combine that with a yellowed plastic lens and filthy reflector and you've got poor lighting conditions. I replaced both the bulb and the lens in my Cabriolet and the difference was can't-see-anything to damn-that's-bright!, and I used a new incandescent.
Cleaning up the grounds in the van will help improve things, so will replacing the bulbs with LEDs. In the instrument cluster, be sure the reflectors are a) in place, b) clean:
| tam_shops wrote: |
| Oh, and do I just *pull* on the Vanagon's kitchen light the same way I popped out the passenger side one? |
The kitchen lens has a ridge on each side. You can probably yank it off, but I prefer using a small flat-blade screwdriver to pry one corner out, then pull it off.
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子
Last edited by kamzcab86 on Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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Thanks for the laugh!
| syncromike wrote: |
| tam_shops wrote: |
| (what kind of weird contraption is that? I don't remember any light in any car I've ever had having the entire assembly pop out when removing the bulb!) |
Simplistic and efficient Beetle engineering at its finest... |
Ooooh, it's dirty and old. Thank you! Can't get new ones, can you? So, what do I clean it with? Will have to look at it again (and disconnect the battery), but hope it's easy to take off, given it's bad design! LOL
I've yet to adventure so far as the instrument panel. I kind of have to wonder if one of the reasons my van has been so trouble free is b/c no one has been poking and prodding around! It's *all* original, still...  Bahhhhhaa
You mean, clean the grounds on the battery OR the light? Both which require I disconnect the battery (poking around again! LOL), right?
Screw driver for kitchen light it will be. Thank you! Not until I find the LED bulbs though.
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
Incandescents produce a yellow glow. Combine that with a yellowed plastic lens and filthy reflector and you've got poor lighting conditions. I replaced both the bulb and the lens in my Cabriolet and the difference was can't-see-anything to damn-that's-bright!, and I used a new incandescent.
Cleaning up the grounds in the van will help improve things, so will replacing the bulbs with LEDs. In the instrument cluster, be sure the reflectors are a) in place, b) clean:
| tam_shops wrote: |
| Oh, and do I just *pull* on the Vanagon's kitchen light the same way I popped out the passenger side one? |
The kitchen lens has a ridge on each side. You can probably yank it off, but I prefer using a small flat-blade screwdriver to pry one corner out, then pull it off. |
THANKS!
tam
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic
Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885 |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7916
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
| Ooooh, it's dirty and old. Thank you! Can't get new ones, can you? So, what do I clean it with? Will have to look at it again (and disconnect the battery), but hope it's easy to take off, given it's bad design! LOL |
The lens? Don't know; I had to buy a new one for my Cabriolet only because it magically broke one day while driving.  My van's lenses are still pretty good, so I haven't a need to look for new ones.
| tam_shops wrote: |
| I've yet to adventure so far as the instrument panel. I kind of have to wonder if one of the reasons my van has been so trouble free is b/c no one has been poking and prodding around! It's *all* original, still... Bahhhhhaa |
For the cluster lights, all you need to do is pull the cover off. The two main bulbs are right there on top, along with those reflectors. You only need to remove the instrument cluster if you want to replace the clock bulb.
| tam_shops wrote: |
| You mean, clean the grounds on the battery OR the light? Both which require I disconnect the battery (poking around again! LOL), right? |
Wouldn't hurt to clean the lights' connections too, but I was referring to the main grounds on/in the van: engine strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), transmission strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), steering column (clean it), fuse panel (clean 'em). And, yes, definitely disconnect the battery before starting this little project. 
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| tam_shops wrote: |
| Ooooh, it's dirty and old. Thank you! Can't get new ones, can you? So, what do I clean it with? Will have to look at it again (and disconnect the battery), but hope it's easy to take off, given it's bad design! LOL |
The lens? Don't know; I had to buy a new one for my Cabriolet only because it magically broke one day while driving. My van's lenses are still pretty good, so I haven't a need to look for new ones.
| tam_shops wrote: |
| I've yet to adventure so far as the instrument panel. I kind of have to wonder if one of the reasons my van has been so trouble free is b/c no one has been poking and prodding around! It's *all* original, still... Bahhhhhaa |
For the cluster lights, all you need to do is pull the cover off. The two main bulbs are right there on top, along with those reflectors. You only need to remove the instrument cluster if you want to replace the clock bulb.
| tam_shops wrote: |
| You mean, clean the grounds on the battery OR the light? Both which require I disconnect the battery (poking around again! LOL), right? |
Wouldn't hurt to clean the lights' connections too, but I was referring to the main grounds on/in the van: engine strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), transmission strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), steering column (clean it), fuse panel (clean 'em). And, yes, definitely disconnect the battery before starting this little project. |
Ok, great thank you! Will have to wait until I get my new Stereo on, my dh had better have picked it up while it was on sale for my birthday! LOL
I will need more information about what the transmission strap looks like and where it is? Will check owners manual.
The fuse panel is that little button under the Shore line plug, right? Am I pulling it from the wall first? Was planning on pulling that old style black plug off and put a grey Decor one in anyway.
I used to do the work on my car, but my dad used to point and things and say, "take that [insert name] off", which isn't the same as doing it yourself, and I never did the same thing twice! LOL And, of course, he was always right there to grab anything if I started to do something wrong.
Thanks!
tam
Oh, and Lordco does not have LED bulbs. They do have Vanagon struts for $30 each. Thing I hate about comparing is who knows if these are better/last longer than the gowesty ones!
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic
Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885
Last edited by tam_shops on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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geo_tonz
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2012
Posts: 1472
Location: Courtenay, BC, CANADA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
Wouldn't hurt to clean the lights' connections too, but I was referring to the main grounds on/in the van: engine strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), transmission strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), steering column (clean it), fuse panel (clean 'em). And, yes, definitely disconnect the battery before starting this little project. |
Also the ground stars/crowns on the firewall behind the fuse panel. Remove and clean the screw and the contact patch to the fire wall and then remove and clean each connector. Watch it, they can be sharp. Brass coloured 1.5" round things screwed into the firewall with 100 brown wires attached to them (2 crowns I think). Remember that colour wire! That's VW ground wire colour. Whenever you come across it else ware in the van take a sec to make sure it's connection is cleaned up and coated with di-electric grease as the grounds just eventually corrode. If you find a rogue disconnected one it's probably connected (or was) to something that's not working in your van. Read through how many "help me" threads on The Samba are traced back to bad ground connections. Almost every "I went over a bump and now this doesn't work" story is a screwy ground.
New interior lights...like this?
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-823-947-105-B
_________________
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 "Ron Burgundy": 1991 Vanagon Multivan (Weekender) 2.1L Auto - Driver/Camper |
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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| geo_tonz wrote: |
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
Wouldn't hurt to clean the lights' connections too, but I was referring to the main grounds on/in the van: engine strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), transmission strap (replace it & clean the mounting points), steering column (clean it), fuse panel (clean 'em). And, yes, definitely disconnect the battery before starting this little project. |
Also the ground stars/crowns on the firewall behind the fuse panel. Remove and clean the screw and the contact patch to the fire wall and then remove and clean each connector. Watch it, they can be sharp. Brass coloured 1.5" round things screwed into the firewall with 100 brown wires attached to them (2 crowns I think). Remember that colour wire! That's VW ground wire colour. Whenever you come across it else ware in the van take a sec to make sure it's connection is cleaned up and coated with di-electric grease as the grounds just eventually corrode. If you find a rogue disconnected one it's probably connected (or was) to something that's not working in your van. Read through how many "help me" threads on The Samba are traced back to bad ground connections. Almost every "I went over a bump and now this doesn't work" story is a screwy ground.
New interior lights...like this?
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-823-947-105-B |
Hey, someone else just told me to clean that too, on another thread. Thank you for stating the obvious (to everyone else) and telling me where it was! LOL And, I just printed both threads to bring outside with me!
If that light will hook up directly to the old wires AND fit in that hole, I'll add it to my list. It's prettier than the old one!
Thank you!
tam
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic
Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885 |
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geo_tonz
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2012
Posts: 1472
Location: Courtenay, BC, CANADA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think that light is the one. Looks like the one on the go westy site that's more money and more shipping: http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=2303&category_id=339&category_parent_id=
CIP has a shot of it from below on their website so you can compare it to yours. really I don't see why it wouldn't work but weirder things have happened. I tend to order from them if I can as delivery is days, not weeks like ordering from the states and by the time you factor in shipping and possible brokerage fees it ends up being cheaper, even if the list price is a little more. Free shipping over $100 has worked for me a few times and got me the cheapest Bentley I could find in 3 days.
Just a Canadian parts buyer perspective, not a CIP sales pitch. I also buy from the usual US suppliers when I need to, and the skylight guy when they have what I want (fast shipping too).
Don't know how I veered of into suppliers and shipping...must be thinking about ordering something....
_________________
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"Ron Burgundy": 1991 Vanagon Multivan (Weekender) 2.1L Auto - Driver/Camper |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7916
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Finding LED bulbs in Canada and why are the old bulbs du |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
| I will need more information about what the transmission strap looks like and where it is? Will check owners manual. |
Doubt the owner's manual says, it's in the Bentley manual for sure. Where it's at: You'll need to slide under the van to find it. And if it's anything like mine was, it's covered in filth. I don't think I took photos when I replaced mine, but I'll look.
| tam_shops wrote: |
| The fuse panel is that little button under the Shore line plug, right? |
No. Main fuse/relay panel below the dash, behind the black panel (which just pulls off):
Very important to know where ^that is for when (not if  ) a fuse blows.
| geo_tonz wrote: |
| Also the ground stars/crowns on the firewall behind the fuse panel. |
When I said "fuse panel", that's what I meant.
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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dreweast
Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Sandbar, Eastern Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:44 am Post subject: |
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If you are still hunting for LEDs in Canada, this East Coast Vendor has a cool selection and great prices. I've purchased from them and had great service.
http://www.led-nova.com/
peace
_________________
81 Westy/94 EJ22
www.eastwestyexperiment.blogspot.com |
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Colonel_Brown
Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2010
Posts: 115
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
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I just ordered a bunch from Deal Extreme (free shipping to Canada)... It was much cheaper than some of the vanagon specialty vendors and most of the automotive lights say the socket type/size so it's pretty straightforward to find what you need. The question will be whether or not what I ordered will fit inside the various reflectors. I tried a few different shapes than what go-westy and van-cafe show in their pictures to get higher light output (hopefully it's not overkill).
When the parcel arrives I'll post some pictures and my order's details.
I found this PDF to be very useful when ordering as well:
http://oldbluesblog.com/files/VanagonLEDCrossReference.pdf
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL (1.9L) - "Colonel Brown" |
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schoonerman
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 244
Location: vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I bought all my interior led's from Lee's Electronics on Main st Vancouver.
Just take your old bulbs with you and they will match them
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87 Westy/Vanagon |
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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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How come every time I ask what sounds like a question for what I think is an easy project, you guys give me 18 more projects to go with it? Good thing I got my van now and not in the middle of the summer! LOL I can't keep up, maybe I need to have a home comers party or something!
| Colonel_Brown wrote: |
I just ordered a bunch from Deal Extreme (free shipping to Canada)...
When the parcel arrives I'll post some pictures and my order's details.
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Thanks! If they're cheaper, please do! I'm on the border, can order to the US, it's not a big deal. $40 for 5 bulbs just seems kind of expensive!
| dreweast wrote: |
If you are still hunting for LEDs in Canada, this East Coast Vendor has a cool selection and great prices. I've purchased from them and had great service.
http://www.led-nova.com/
peace |
Thank you! Which ones did you use?
| geo_tonz wrote: |
I think that light is the one. Looks like the one on the go westy site that's more money and more shipping: http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=2303&category_id=339&category_parent_id=
CIP has a shot of it from below on their website so you can compare it to yours. really I don't see why it wouldn't work but weirder things have happened. I tend to order from them if I can as delivery is days, not weeks like ordering from the states and by the time you factor in shipping and possible brokerage fees it ends up being cheaper, even if the list price is a little more. Free shipping over $100 has worked for me a few times and got me the cheapest Bentley I could find in 3 days.
Just a Canadian parts buyer perspective, not a CIP sales pitch. I also buy from the usual US suppliers when I need to, and the skylight guy when they have what I want (fast shipping too).
Don't know how I veered of into suppliers and shipping...must be thinking about ordering something.... |
Great, thank you so much! I live on the border, so ship from the US to the US and then go down and pick things up. Right now, I'm just going for the cheapest, b/c there are so many things I like/want/need and counting! LOL
| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| tam_shops wrote: |
| I will need more information about what the transmission strap looks like and where it is? Will check owners manual. |
Doubt the owner's manual says, it's in the Bentley manual for sure. Where it's at: You'll need to slide under the van to find it. And if it's anything like mine was, it's covered in filth. I don't think I took photos when I replaced mine, but I'll look.
| tam_shops wrote: |
| The fuse panel is that little button under the Shore line plug, right? |
No. Main fuse/relay panel below the dash, behind the black panel (which just pulls off):
Very important to know where ^that is for when (not if ) a fuse blows.
| geo_tonz wrote: |
| Also the ground stars/crowns on the firewall behind the fuse panel. |
When I said "fuse panel", that's what I meant. |
Thank you again! I'll see if I can find it next time I'm in the van. I'm counting the days down until Spring Break! I now understand what people mean about making/finding the time for their van! LOL I can't wait until the longer Spring days arrive! And, still working on my cleaning! LOL
Thank you again!
tam
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic
Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885 |
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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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juanb
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2009
Posts: 535
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
Canada was too expensive, getting the gowesty ones when a sale pops up!
Didn't realize that gowesty had two grades of LED bulbs, they do that a lot and it confuses me! I'm happy to pay more money if I'm getting something worth it out of it, but if the more expensive item isn't *that* much better, why spend the money! Anyone seen both?
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23483&category_id=207&category_parent_id=
Standard and High Power.
Which is better!
tam |
The high power ones simply have twice as many LEDs on each lamp. I have both kinds, and prefer the high power ones.
Now--GoWesty is nice and all, but they sure overcharge on items like these. You can get two of the "high power" lamps on Amazon for $6:
http://www.amazon.com/Festoon-Light-Bulbs-White-90...s=39mm+led
I ordered mine from dealextreme.com.
http://dx.com/p/39mm-white-6-led-license-plate-dome-light-bulbs-pair-dc-12v-44896
I see now that these links I'm including are for pure white LEDs. The Gowesty site says that theirs are warm--I'm not sure that is worth a 3x price tag though (and I'm sure you can find warm ones if you search a bit online.)
I love GoWesty's engines, bumpers and other Vanagon-specific things, but when it comes to little consumer electronics stuff like these lamps, you're better off looking elsewhere.
_________________
1989 Westy AT, 2.2 GoWesty.
We drove it to Argentina: http://www.vanenvan.com |
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tam_shops
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2012
Posts: 1530
Location: Vancouver BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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You ROCK! Thanks! I paid $10 for one, so $5 for 2 is 1/4 the price!
Do you happen to know which map light one I'd need? Ebay has them too, but I didn't know which ones...
tam
| juanb wrote: |
| tam_shops wrote: |
Canada was too expensive, getting the gowesty ones when a sale pops up!
Didn't realize that gowesty had two grades of LED bulbs, they do that a lot and it confuses me! I'm happy to pay more money if I'm getting something worth it out of it, but if the more expensive item isn't *that* much better, why spend the money! Anyone seen both?
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23483&category_id=207&category_parent_id=
Standard and High Power.
Which is better!
tam |
The high power ones simply have twice as many LEDs on each lamp. I have both kinds, and prefer the high power ones.
Now--GoWesty is nice and all, but they sure overcharge on items like these. You can get two of the "high power" lamps on Amazon for $6:
http://www.amazon.com/Festoon-Light-Bulbs-White-90...s=39mm+led
I ordered mine from dealextreme.com.
http://dx.com/p/39mm-white-6-led-license-plate-dome-light-bulbs-pair-dc-12v-44896
I see now that these links I'm including are for pure white LEDs. The Gowesty site says that theirs are warm--I'm not sure that is worth a 3x price tag though (and I'm sure you can find warm ones if you search a bit online.)
I love GoWesty's engines, bumpers and other Vanagon-specific things, but when it comes to little consumer electronics stuff like these lamps, you're better off looking elsewhere. |
_________________
1987 Vanagon Westfalia GL Automatic
Making it special:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545885 |
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Rallyedude
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2009
Posts: 206
Location: Aylmer, QC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:06 am Post subject: |
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You could try Paul at pgperformance he's in bc. Good guy and really in to lighting products . Although mostly for fwd vw.
pgperformance.com
_________________
85 2wd Doka ABA In progress
82 westy diesel under the knife , MTDi ,weddle gears |
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juanb
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2009
Posts: 535
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
You ROCK! Thanks! I paid $10 for one, so $5 for 2 is 1/4 the price!
Do you happen to know which map light one I'd need? Ebay has them too, but I didn't know which ones...
tam
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I don't know off the top of my head. But as you see in the GW photo, that lamp has only two LEDs lenghtwise instead of three. I think that's enough to determine what you need. Or you can always take the lamp you have there now and measure its length...
_________________
1989 Westy AT, 2.2 GoWesty.
We drove it to Argentina: http://www.vanenvan.com |
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 7916
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| tam_shops wrote: |
| Do you happen to know which map light one I'd need? Ebay has them too, but I didn't know which ones... |
http://oldbluesblog.com/files/VanagonLEDCrossReference.pdf
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子
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