Refurbishing & upgrading 1968~79 VW Type 2 headlamp syst

[chabanais]

[NASkeet]

[NASkeet]

[telford dorr]

[NASkeet]

[telford dorr]

[SGKent]

getting in kinda late here and this is probably meaningless. My bus has a set of Cibie 7" H4 Narva 60/55 lights in it. Having cleaned all connections from the battery and alternator to the lights, replacing the stock switch with a NOS stock switch, and the ignition switch being new, all grounds cleaned, all crimps cleaned etc, the CIBIE lights see 11.99 - 12.01 volts across them. The loom coming forward drops about 7/10th of a volt and the combination of switches drops another 7/10. This drops the 13.5 at the alternator to the 12.1 or so at the lights. Daniel Stern suggests using heavier wiring and relays for the lights to get the benefit of the full 13.5 but listening to y'all argue the point has convinced me I can see fine with them as they are.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[telford dorr]

Found a possible solution on-line:

Install a Negative Temperature Coefficient (NTC) current limiting thermistor, like a GE CL-30, in series with the lamp. This device has a resistance of 2.5 ohms when cold, thus limiting the turn-on surge current to 5 amps or so, with most of the voltage (and power) drop across the thermistor. As the device heats up, it's resistance drops, and more current is fed to the lamps.

The trick is to wire a cube relay coil from the bulb feeder to ground, so that it sees the bulb voltage. The contacts are wired to short out the thermistor device. Thus, when the lamp voltage gets high enough (e.g. the lamp is warmed up), the relay closes and full voltage is applied to the lamp.

With something like this, you can use as big a feeder wire as you desire, allowing the lamps to operate at maximum available voltage, with no current surge or welded relays or surge-shortened bulb life.

Will try to source one of these devices and try this out.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[WestyPop]

Great information here. Puzzled, however, by the specter of using oversized "feeder" wires (guessing those would be the actual high-current supply leads to the relays and from there to the headlight bulbs, right).

Our '68 Westy's Cibie Z-beams/relays (and some other up-front devices via fuses) are fed 12V+ by a #4AWG lead from the auxiliary battery bank, through a circuit breaker at the isolator in the camper's rear. Is this arrangement tempting fate? Are you, Telford or Nigel, saying that I should replace the #8AWG leads to the relays & Z-beams with #10 or even 12? Is it just dumb luck that I haven't trashed a relay yet?

The idea of frying any relays in the midst of traveling to/from a camping or road trip conjures up some really negative thoughts. TIA
_________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
______________________________________
J.R.
68 Westy
(+ others)

[NASkeet]

[telford dorr]

[telford dorr]

[NASkeet]

Fabricating & Installing the Supplementary Headlamp Mounting Brackets

By measuring the right-hand (i.e. offside or starboard) and left-hand (i.e. nearside, port or larboard) bodywork headlamp shells (aka bowls), of a scrapped, British specification, 1974 VW 1800 Type 2 and the positions of its various mounting brackets, for the 1974~79 VW Type 2 pattern headlamp units and trim rings, I was able to fabricate a cardboard template.

Late headlight mount – bodywork headlamp shells

Modified 1968~73 VW Type 2 headlamp-buckets, with three supplementary headlamp-mounting lugs & captive M4 nuts, to mount 1974~79 VW Type 2 headlamps or others with the same mounting requirements.

This template summarises all the required location data, for the three headlamp-unit fixing points, relative to the rims of the bodywork headlamp shells and the existing trim-ring's fixing point; which is identical for both the right-hand and left-hand sides.

The 217 mm external diameter of the template, corresponds to the 217 mm external diameter of the headlamp unit's nominally circular (with various cut-outs) mounting ring.

The 179 mm diameter (i.e. 2 x 89•5 mm radius) inscribed blue dotted-line circle, corresponds to the outer circumference, of the lamp-unit's glass lens.

Three 4 mm diameter holes, are punched in the cardboard, corresponding to the required mounting-hole centres, in the headlamp unit's nominally circular (with variously shaped peripheral cut-outs) mounting ring. The mounting ring also has other holes, which will not be used for the VW Type 2 installation.

Using the headlamp trim-ring's fixing point, as a point of reference which defines a horizontal line to the headlamp lens centre, the locations of the headlamp-unit mounting brackets and their captive-nut centres, are as follows:

(1) Recessed 34 mm in from the lamp shell rim and 9 mm outboard of the lamp lens periphery. Rotated 19 degrees clockwise, from the trim-ring's fixing point.

(2) Recessed 9 mm (i.e. within 9½ ± ½ mm) in from the lamp shell rim and 5½ mm outboard of the lamp lens periphery. Rotated 118½ degrees (i.e. 90 + 28½ degrees = 19 + 71 + 28½ degrees) clockwise, from the trim-ring's fixing point.

(3) Recessed 10 mm (i.e. within 9½ ± ½ mm) in from the lamp shell rim and 5 mm outboard of the lamp lens periphery. Rotated 242 degrees (i.e. 19 + 71 + 28½ + 123½ degrees) clockwise, from the trim-ring's fixing point OR rotated 118 degrees (i.e. 90 + 28 degrees) anticlockwise, from the trim-ring's fixing point.

For the moment, I don't have time to examine my L-shaped, headlamp-mounting brackets in-situ and it's been many years since I installed them, so my memory is a little hazy, with regard to the exact procedure I adopted. I shall try to examine them in the near future and also draw some sketches, to help explain the various piecemeal stages, of positioning & securing the mounting brackets, plus the required locations of their fixing holes & captive M4 nuts for the headlamps.

Using scrap off-cuts, of 25 mm thin-walled (circa 1 mm) square-section tube, the L-shaped, headlamp-mounting brackets, were fabricated by first cutting off circa 25 mm and 30 long sections and then cutting across the square-section diagonal. These were then trimmed and shaped to suit their individual locations; the details of which I didn't record, but can check shapes and dimensions when I have sufficient time to spare.

Cursory examination of my L-shaped, headlamp-mounting brackets, has revealed that the material is nominally 1•0 mm thick. The other dimensions of the brackets, vary according to installation position, which are as follows.

(1) - Upright height 12 mm | width 30 mm | Leg length 20 mm | Leg towards headlamp-shell rim

(2) - Upright height 12 mm | width 25 mm | Leg length 15 mm | Leg away from headlamp-shell rim

(3) - Upright height 12 mm | width 25 mm | Leg length 15 mm | Leg away from headlamp-shell rim

My design choice re bracket width, was related to bracket strength, plus the security & stability of the lamp units.

Note that neither the Legs nor the Uprights, are rectangular in shape, being profiled to accommodate the shape of the headlamp unit's nominally circular (with variously shaped peripheral cut-outs) mounting ring.

Note that the bracket widths of 25 mm and 30 mm, were my own design, the original brackets on the 1974 VW 1800 Type 2, from which I took positional measurements, were much smaller.

Owing to the curvature of the body headlamp shell, it is necessary to slightly bend the L-shaped sections, to more or less than 90 degrees, dependent upon whether the orientation of the Leg, is towards or away from the rim.

Positioning the brackets within the body headlamp shell, needs to be done in stages, to ensure that each set of three brackets, are properly aligned in the plane of the headlamp unit's nominally circular (with variously shaped peripheral cut-outs) mounting ring, and that the 4 mm fixing holes in the brackets, coincide with those in the mounting ring to within acceptable tolerances.

The Legs fasten to the body headlamp shell, whilst the Uprights provide the fixing points for headlamp unit's nominally circular (with variously shaped peripheral cut-outs) mounting ring.

Drill a small hole in the centre of the Legs, of all six L-shaped brackets. These will be used to fasten (either temporarily or permanently; dependent upon your preference!?!) the L-shaped brackets to the body headlamp shells. The diameter of these holes, will depend upon the diameter of fastening screws one has available, but I would suggest circa 3~4 mm.
_________________
Regards.

Nigel A. Skeet

Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.

Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper

Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)

http://www.vwt2oc.net

[garyt]

Great info thanks.

Just a note to say that my dimmer relay has just blown on my 79 SB and I noticed that although the stick on the column no longer works, of course, when I switch between headlamps and parking light it goes from full beam to low beam and back again etc, so you don't actually get stuck on full or low. Do not know if this is true on earlier models.

[Hikelite]

[telford dorr]

[Hikelite]

[telford dorr]

Yup - either of those suppliers should work.

I'd look for a part that's maybe 5 ohms cold (inrush current would be less than 3 amps) and can handle 8 amps (100 watt bulb) or 10 amps (130 watt bulb). Should give a nice soft start. (Maybe not so good on high beams if you have a flashing type headlight relay - flash could be a bit slow...)

Extra relays are a good idea.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[slowbird]

Sorry to revive an old one, but this post is exactly what I was looking for and is brilliant in its thoroughness. Thanks, NASkeet.

I have but one question (My first as a member of TheSamba after years of lurking and gazing at my long neglected Bay Window, Jessica)

In the below diagram, where exactly are you connecting the Red Wire (relay 30) at the fusebox?
I see on the diagram that it's to the unfused side of a 16 fuse then unfused R/W to Battery (+).

I am interpreting your diagram to mean the red wire is a new wire (USA) to unfused side of Accessory (Terminal 9 on my '78 Bay).

Is that correct?

_________________
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Slowbird
Winston-Salem, NC
'78 BAY

"Sure you can, you just haven't yet."

[telford dorr]

Correct. The bottom row of connections on the fuse block are the unfused connections. IIRC, the right end are the red full-time power fuses. Connect to an available open terminal on the bottom row with all of the other red wires.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)