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DiscoSquirrel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:46 pm    Post subject: Model year Reply with quote

I have just picked up what I thought to be a 58. Having done some reading on here and other sites I am now unclear as to whether it is a 58 or 59. The chassis number is 2042062.

This site shows it is a 59: http://home.hiwaay.net/~jfrohwei/vwac/changes.html

This one states 'Model Year' and would indicate it to be 58:
http://lovebugfans.yuku.com/topic/1217

And back on here, 'produced' in Aug 58, so does this mean it is in fact a 59 model year?
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php

Which is correct or please tell me where I have gone wrong!

Thanks.

Ben
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djkeev Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

August of 1958

It's a 1959
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

July is the last month of production for the year, August started the next model year.
The numbers on the charts are the last serial numbers made in that month.

This site is just plain wrong
It indicates calender year, not production year.

http://lovebugfans.yuku.com/topic/1217
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DiscoSquirrel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok sweet thanks, that's what I thought but wanted to be certain.

The cool part is the car has semaphores. Does this mean it came from Europe or were there other countries that retained the semaphores after the US lost them in 55?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's up Ben, hurry up and post some pics of this thing! But yeah, like djkeev said, vin indicates it's an early 59.
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DiscoSquirrel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Eric, how's it hangin? Yep pics comin, want to get my facts straight first!
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DiscoSquirrel
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further reading indicates the car could be from Europe, Canada or Australia but I am ruling out Australia as it is LHD. Anyone got a link to differences between Euro and Canadian cars so I can figure out what I've got?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 1959 model year started on 1 Nov 1958 with VIN 2 150 222.

So 2 042 062 is 1958 model year Wink

Straight from Progressive Refinements, courtesy IN2VWS:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Canadian cars lost semaphores at the same time as US cars, so it would not be Canadian. I think Asian markets kept semaphores until ~'60 as well, but I'm not sure of the LHD/RHD situation (I think Japan is RHD?). It's Euro in all likelihood.

You picked a very good year to own. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerrrKafer wrote:
The 1959 model year started on 1 Nov 1958 with VIN 2 150 222.

So 2 042 062 is 1958 model year Wink

Straight from Progressive Refinements, courtesy IN2VWS:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Canadian cars lost semaphores at the same time as US cars, so it would not be Canadian. I think Asian markets kept semaphores until ~'60 as well, but I'm not sure of the LHD/RHD situation (I think Japan is RHD?). It's Euro in all likelihood.

You picked a very good year to own. Very Happy


Ok, tough to argue with that surprising piece of information though I've seen mistakes in that "bible" over time. Hard to believe, but those old Germans were NOT perfect and actually made mistakes!
I have an older copy that doesn't have that section C in it and is missing other pages as well and ends at 1961.
Can you look at the other years after they switched to the August model year and post similar information if it differs from the numbers listed for the first of August (last number of July + 1)

If this is true why hasn't it ever come to light before or noted in the serial number pages here on Samba or elsewhere? Maybe it has been talked about but if so I totally missed it.
This information, if true, will radically change what many many people THINK they are driving and restoring!
Can Everett make these notes in the chassis number margin for future reference? (similar to large rear window note)

Thanks for the eye opening information! To every rule there really is an exception.

Dave
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HerrrKafer
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I was surprised when I first saw that too. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of PR to check other years, I just noticed that picture in this thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=316558

There are certainly mistakes, but this doesn't seem like one. Both the Bus and Beetle numbers correspond to the date given, so it's not just a simple typo. Definitely a topic that warrants some further exploration!
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DiscoSquirrel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I never, so it really is a 58, cool. Is this piece of literature VW published? I guess I am not too fussed which year it is, they are both awesome, but it is nice to know for sure! Thanks for the very informative info.

So next is figuring out some history on the car, where it came from and what it should and should not have. I'd love to get down to the nitty-gritty with this, like the headlight lenses and the semaphores as well as the obvious interior and trim etc etc. Aside from getting a birth certificate where should I start?

Many thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DiscoSquirrel wrote:
Well I never, so it really is a 58, cool. Is this piece of literature VW published? I guess I am not too fussed which year it is, they are both awesome, but it is nice to know for sure! Thanks for the very informative info.
Yes, PR was VW's internal publication of changes, never meant for public viewing. Very Happy

DiscoSquirrel wrote:
So next is figuring out some history on the car, where it came from and what it should and should not have. I'd love to get down to the nitty-gritty with this, like the headlight lenses and the semaphores as well as the obvious interior and trim etc etc. Aside from getting a birth certificate where should I start?
The best information is probably right here, in old posts. Lots of really knowledgeable year-to-year changes people around. Janerick3 can tell you anything you need to know about headlight lenses for example. Two easily-acquirable books that might get you started are the Bob Wilson 1949-1959 book and the James Richardson -1967 book. But, there ARE mistakes in almost every reference, and the Wilson book is especially well-stocked with errors (so check the info here).

As far as history for your particular car, this is often tough without some good leads. In a couple cases, I have gotten lucky by finding an old concert ticket or luggage ID badge stuffed in some weird place (eg between tunnel and seat frame... stuff can sit there for decades). Then a couple letters and/or phone calls and I'm in touch with an old owner.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
HerrrKafer wrote:
The 1959 model year started on 1 Nov 1958 with VIN 2 150 222.

So 2 042 062 is 1958 model year Wink

Straight from Progressive Refinements, courtesy IN2VWS:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Canadian cars lost semaphores at the same time as US cars, so it would not be Canadian. I think Asian markets kept semaphores until ~'60 as well, but I'm not sure of the LHD/RHD situation (I think Japan is RHD?). It's Euro in all likelihood.

You picked a very good year to own. Very Happy


Ok, tough to argue with that surprising piece of information though I've seen mistakes in that "bible" over time. Hard to believe, but those old Germans were NOT perfect and actually made mistakes!
I have an older copy that doesn't have that section C in it and is missing other pages as well and ends at 1961.
Can you look at the other years after they switched to the August model year and post similar information if it differs from the numbers listed for the first of August (last number of July + 1)

If this is true why hasn't it ever come to light before or noted in the serial number pages here on Samba or elsewhere? Maybe it has been talked about but if so I totally missed it.
This information, if true, will radically change what many many people THINK they are driving and restoring!
Can Everett make these notes in the chassis number margin for future reference? (similar to large rear window note)

Thanks for the eye opening information! To every rule there really is an exception.

Dave


I have a complete copy and that page is taken from the rear section titled "General Modifications" It gives the same info for each year in the same manner, and its usually gives a date and VIN later in the year than it should be.

However, if you look in the individual sections, in this case "Body", it shows the major changes to each new year model occurring at or around Aug. 1st.

Now, as many of us know, not much changed from '58 to '59. One thing that did change were the available colors for the new year model. These changes are documented pretty clearly at each year model change, and in this case they changed on July 31st '58.

Also, the chassis # given for the supposed change is not mentioned anywhere else in any section of the book as being a unit on which a change occurred. If it is the First "new" '59, it is no different than the "last" '58 before it.

I say you have an Aug '58, '59 model car. Unless its one of the new '59 colors, it practically the same as a '58 anyway. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ I was hoping we'd hear from you on this one! Brilliant info.

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying completely....
KantDriveFast wrote:

It gives the same info for each year in the same manner, and its usually gives a date and VIN later in the year than it should be.
These other entries give dates/VINs that are also much later (months), not just a few days?

If so, that would clear it up pretty well... either a funky record-keeping feature, or the German model year started with the later date (as stated in the thread I referenced before).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting stuff, if a little confusing! HerrrKafer, I picked up on the detail of the German market in that thread, but was trying to figure out how it applies in this case. So if I understand this correctly, I do indeed have a 59 car, as it was built in August 58, unless the car was originally built for the German market, in which case it would technically have been a 58, as it was built before November. This sound about right? Cool stuff!

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think That's a good point. Time for the birth certificate!
If it's a German car, then there's some more research to do Exclamation
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerrrKafer wrote:
Time for the birth certificate!

Yep, I think so. Short of many hours spent trying to hunt down previous owners in the quest for answers, it looks like that is what I will have to do to get a definitive answer.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerrrKafer wrote:
If it's a German car, then there's some more research to do Exclamation

In fact, whichever way you cut it, there is more research to do surely... we have established the car was built for the euro market right? So whether it is a 58 or 59 would depend on which particular country it went to... I think! Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HerrrKafer wrote:
These other entries give dates/VINs that are also much later (months), not just a few days?


Yup. For example, the next year it states:
1 Oct. 59 Ch. 2 632 801... Start of '60 model

However, back in the body section, there are 2 whole pages of changes happening (paint colors, outer door handles, arm rest, sun visor, foot rest, etc. that occurred with chassis number 2 528 668, on Aug. 6 '59.

All these changes (and more!) are the things that make the '60 different from the '59, and all happened on the same car.

So why would a car made 104,000 cars later be the first one?

This is the fun/frustration of Progressive Refinements. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My theory.....and its only a theory.....

If you look at volume 2 of PR, it lists new model year for export at the begining of August for each year, and the new model year for local (Germany)in October or November.

I think the new model year for all export models was in August 1958, and in November for local (Germany) models.

Now if your car was originally a Euro spec car for Germany, then it would be a '58 model.

The same info and dates is in the German and English versions of PR,
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