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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9936
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, please do send a link to the dyno chart. According to VW the stock first 1.9TDI made about 75hp at 2800 rpm while the 1.9TD made more like 55hp at 2800. If I could get equal or better than 75hp at 2800 I would be pretty happy with my 1.9TDs and would gear them taller to cruise at that rpm. That is about a 35% increase in power with the TDI numbers at that rpm.
Mark
| allsierra123 wrote: |
| Will Do I will get the links for you. The short of it is 3" flow through exhaust. Turn up the fuel screw a bit change out the plunger in the injection pump for the 1.6 TD one. As well as adjusting the wastegate. |
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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I have been unable to find numbers on how many automatics were actually imported but based on my own experience and a couple of comments heard and some things I have read I think that near to 50% (at least by '90 and '91) of Vanagons were imported with automatic transmissions. Anyone?
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91 Westy |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50350
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Something to consider if you are going to swap gear ratios, the Vanagon torque converter has a stall speed in the 2750 range, if you try and drop the cruising rpms below that it will do you little good.
Early aircooled Vanagons and Bays did use torque converters with lower stalls and should be a direct swap. |
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magician
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Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 95
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
| There may be engines where a very tall geared 3 speed would not be too much of a performance penalty but I would not put the 1.9TD in that category so much. |
I'm not too familiar with the 1.9TD ... I was thinking 1.9TDI from the Mk4 cars. This got me thinking that it would be good to compare the torque/HP of the two engines ... a little scrounging yielded this chart ... now granted the TDI appears to have some mild tuning, but suggests that the 3.25 ratio should be a good match.
Wildthings brings up a good point ...
| Wildthings wrote: |
Something to consider if you are going to swap gear ratios, the Vanagon torque converter has a stall speed in the 2750 range, if you try and drop the cruising rpms below that it will do you little good.
Early aircooled Vanagons and Bays did use torque converters with lower stalls and should be a direct swap. |
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04 R32 | 85 Cabrio | 79 Rabbit | 91 T3 Carat Auto
'00 Jetta TDI (sold)| 91 Cabrio (sold) | 81 Rabbit diesel (sold)| 87 T3 GL (sold) | 91 T3 Carat 4sp (sold) |
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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Thanks, please do send a link to the dyno chart. According to VW the stock first 1.9TDI made about 75hp at 2800 rpm while the 1.9TD made more like 55hp at 2800. If I could get equal or better than 75hp at 2800 I would be pretty happy with my 1.9TDs and would gear them taller to cruise at that rpm. That is about a 35% increase in power with the TDI numbers at that rpm.
Mark
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The basic 1.9 TDI has always had 90 hp and 149 lb/ft of torque. It actually made its debut in the Audi 80 back in 1993 and was then put into the Golf about 15 months later. The 1.9 TD was rated at 75 hp and 111 lb/ft of torque. Earlier 1.6 TDs made as much as 80 hp because they were higher tuned. The 1.9 TD is more of a stroked out Eco Diesel like VW sold here in 1991. The turbo delivers low boost and improves volumetric efficiency some, but also serves to improve emissions. That's why there's so much tuning potential with that particular engine. I'm not an expert on tuning the 1.9 TD by any means, but I was under the impression 90 hp was a good upper limit for that engine, but with nowhere near the torque of a TDI. 
David |
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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David had sent this along to me out-side of the forum. He agreed to let me post it here. Good info.
| D Clymer wrote: |
Hi,
You definitely have the right idea in regard to approaching a US ring and pinion manufacturer about getting some of some taller final drives made. Some time ago, when I thought I was going to be doing a lot more Subaru conversions I considered undertaking this, but when I saw that Brian at Smallcar had reached an apparent dead end with his inquiries I put the idea on the back burner. But it seems to me it should be possible to get these made. I know if you look through the air cooled catalogues some of the vendors sell a 4.86 setup for bug manual trannies made by Richmond Gear, and this is a non-standard Type 1 ratio so it must be possible. It all must come down to economies of scale - how many are being made in a production run. This is where a group buy would come in.
In regard to the Vanaru person that posted on your thread, I think his rpms at 60 mph sound about right. From what I could tell he is running 215/65/16 tires. These have a diameter of 27". Stock is 25.3". From what I've heard, the 3.74 final drive is supposed to knock about 250 rpms off at highway speeds, so combined with his taller tires, the 300-350 he is claiming is probably about right. BTW, I completely disagree with his prediction that a taller geared wbx will overheat and get poor mileage.
I think 3.08 is too tall for the smaller engined conversions like a Subaru 2.2, 2.5, Zetec 2.0, or uprated wbx. It would be fine for an SVX conversion and probably fine for a TDI since the TDI has 150 lb/ft of torque available at 1900 rpms. But I think the goal is to come up with a ratio that is a good compromise for all the conversions. You should seriously go test drive some used Audi 5000s to get an idea of what you think is right.
Cars with 3.08:1
1984-1988 Audi 5000 Turbo
1989-1991 Audi 200 front driver
Cars with 3.25:1
1984-1988 Audi 5000 S
1989-1990 Audi 100 front driver with 3 speed automatic.
The beauty of this comparison is that all of these cars have the same first, second, and Drive gear ratios, so you'd be comparing apples to apples with a Vanagon transmission. Of course the engines are totally different, but you'd get an idea of off the line acceleration and cruising rpms.
BTW, I don't think anyone has figures regarding # of automatic Vanagons sold here, but I think it is safe to say that in the later years, 1989-1991, more than half of all yearly sales were for automatics. In those years it is actually quite hard to find manual transmission Carats and Multivans.
Let me know how things go and if I can be of any further help. I think this is an example of a part that would be in high demand once word got out that it was available. I personally know of one person in the Seattle area who is looking for this very item as we speak.
Regards,
David |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9936
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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My post was not comparing peak hp at near max rpms but rather hp available at the cruising rpm of 2800. That is the more important figure when talking about gearing the tranny to greatly lower highway rpms. Tuning an engine for a bigger hp number means little when that big number occurs outside of the rpm range you are normally going to use, such as the 1.6TD 80, max hp at over 5000 rpm. The purpose of a dyno chart for this discussion is to compare the power available across the full rpm range you plan to use to see if there is enough power at the rpm you want to gear to. The beauty of the TDI is that it makes more power at low rpm than most other engines and thus can be geared for lower rpms than most other engines. Since it also has a lower max rpm limit than most other engines some regearing is essential when it is put into a Vanagon.
Mark
| D Clymer wrote: |
| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Thanks, please do send a link to the dyno chart. According to VW the stock first 1.9TDI made about 75hp at 2800 rpm while the 1.9TD made more like 55hp at 2800. If I could get equal or better than 75hp at 2800 I would be pretty happy with my 1.9TDs and would gear them taller to cruise at that rpm. That is about a 35% increase in power with the TDI numbers at that rpm.
Mark
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The basic 1.9 TDI has always had 90 hp and 149 lb/ft of torque. It actually made its debut in the Audi 80 back in 1993 and was then put into the Golf about 15 months later. The 1.9 TD was rated at 75 hp and 111 lb/ft of torque. Earlier 1.6 TDs made as much as 80 hp because they were higher tuned. The 1.9 TD is more of a stroked out Eco Diesel like VW sold here in 1991. The turbo delivers low boost and improves volumetric efficiency some, but also serves to improve emissions. That's why there's so much tuning potential with that particular engine. I'm not an expert on tuning the 1.9 TD by any means, but I was under the impression 90 hp was a good upper limit for that engine, but with nowhere near the torque of a TDI.
David |
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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
My post was not comparing peak hp at near max rpms but rather hp available at the cruising rpm of 2800. That is the more important figure when talking about gearing the tranny to greatly lower highway rpms. Tuning an engine for a bigger hp number means little when that big number occurs outside of the rpm range you are normally going to use, such as the 1.6TD 80, max hp at over 5000 rpm. The purpose of a dyno chart for this discussion is to compare the power available across the full rpm range you plan to use to see if there is enough power at the rpm you want to gear to. The beauty of the TDI is that it makes more power at low rpm than most other engines and thus can be geared for lower rpms than most other engines. Since it also has a lower max rpm limit than most other engines some regearing is essential when it is put into a Vanagon.
Mark
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That makes sense. I thought you were talking about peak advertised outputs. Yes, dyno charts would be very helpful for determining in an engine makes sufficient torque at cruising speed for a given ratio. 
David |
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Paul made these comments in a pvt email. He has agreed to allow me to re-post. THX PAUL!
| gears wrote: |
Hi Cornelius
I know nothing about the automatic transmissions, but I enjoyed the one automatic van I owned.
If German Transaxle in Bend doesn't know what might be available to modify, I can't imagine who would.
The numbers just aren't there to have automatic R&Ps made in quantity. We used to have 1-of R&Ps made but they cost us over 3K.
The Albins (Australian)-made ones are pretty marginal in quality. I'm trying to contact an Argentinian company that makes nice R&Ps.
Good luck, Paul |
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Chuck77
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Joined: April 05, 2007
Posts: 170
Location: Brush Prairie, WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I heard a rumor, well from a buddy of mine who I have a hard time believing most of the time, that one of the owners at Smallcar in Tacoma is running a modded Subaru automatic tranny with an overdrive with a 2.5 in his Westy. He told me that he got to drive it a few months back as a tester before he had them do a 2.5 swap in his multi. I guess the thing just flat out moves, and has pretty decent highway manners, well as much as you can tell on I-5 that time of day.
My concern is the cruising RPM band as well. All engines have a torque band that was initially designed to take into account fuel economy, emissions and longevity of the engine. But before they come up with that number they need to pinpoint a final drive ratio taking into account the tranny gearing, ring and pinion ratio, and tire diameter. The tranny and the RP take the brunt of the engine's output at certain ratios (let's say the tranny takes 45% and the RP at 55%). By changing the RP ratio (lower number = higher gears) in effect the tranny will be taking more of the engine's output and the new ratio would force the tranny to take over more of a load. Wow, after re-reading that I may have confused myself...
Ultimately, what I am trying to say is that a quick ratio change would offer up increased driveability at low rpm's making it an attractive choice for any common motor swap. The problem that may arise is the premature death of your tranny, if not properly bolstered to take on a tougher and more involved role in your drivetrain with a new RP. In my opinion, go taller with your tires, get a big brake kit to stop a little quicker, and spend the rest on beer. If you do get this figured out, post back every now and again on this subject, you definitely have my attention.
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1988 Vanagon GL 7 passenger, 15" Mercedes 8 hole alloys with Nokian Hakka's (SOLD) |
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a914622
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Joined: July 29, 2004
Posts: 840
Location: Westend of HWY2 , Wash
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Nope... don't believe your buddy.
The owner of small car IS running a 2.5 subby. But the tranny is a Audi 5000 turbo mated to the stock vanagon bell housing.
The Syncro he runs is a manual..
The Subaru ring gear cant be flipped!! It was an old Prosche trick, You take the two side plates off, put the ring gear in from the opposite side and the wheels turn the opposite direction. The next gen of trannys from subaru will have a tdi gearing/ratio. There is already a tdi subaru in europe. (do a you tube search) MAYBE it would be easer to look at the ratios subaru uses for the tdi!! 
jcl |
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gears
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Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem is that Subaru now has their R&Ps made in China. They aren't lasting nearly as long as the old ones made in Japan. |
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: 2 cents |
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Last winter... early spring, Brian at Small Car Performance told me in an email he was working on getting a Subi transmission working in a Vanagon (with Subie engine as well). Don't know how far along he got with the project but did mention some "vibration" issues... anyway he later stated he had no further news about it... SO... I have heard this too but no details.... Brian?
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: deleted |
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*DEL*
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allsierra123
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Joined: August 19, 2006
Posts: 1462
Location: Tecate, Baja California MX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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here is a link to a thread showing the AAZ mildly tuned mostly stock.
I would post it in here if I could figure out how.
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=17014
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95 GMC Yukon 6.5 TD 2 Door Tow pig/ Daily driver.
91 Vanagon GL. 1.9TD Conversion Sold
81 Vw rabbit 1.6 Diesel. Sold |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 9936
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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The dyno chart in the thread you pointed to demonstrates my point pretty well. Even though it purports to show a 1.9TD modified to more power than a TDI it does NOT show that at the low end of the rpm range. The stock TDI has 50% more torque at 2000 rpm than is shown on the dyno chart for that hopped up TD. Whether one engine or another is more powerful depends on gearing and intended use of the rpm range. Still that chart shows an impressive output for what is stated as nothing more than a stock motor with a fueling increase. I wonder how big of a smoke screen that thing would leave behind my Westy?
Mark
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allsierra123
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Joined: August 19, 2006
Posts: 1462
Location: Tecate, Baja California MX
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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The ones I see that are tuned out and pulling down huge numbers dont smoke a whole lot. Usually smoke indicates wasted fuel and that is not what anyone wants.
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95 GMC Yukon 6.5 TD 2 Door Tow pig/ Daily driver.
91 Vanagon GL. 1.9TD Conversion Sold
81 Vw rabbit 1.6 Diesel. Sold |
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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I've sent my "white paper" out to a couple of manufacturers.... we'll see what they have to say... keep ya posted.
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magician
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Joined: February 20, 2007
Posts: 95
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: Heard anything? |
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| Dogberry wrote: |
| I've sent my "white paper" out to a couple of manufacturers.... we'll see what they have to say... keep ya posted. |
Have you heard from the manufacturers?
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04 R32 | 85 Cabrio | 79 Rabbit | 91 T3 Carat Auto
'00 Jetta TDI (sold)| 91 Cabrio (sold) | 81 Rabbit diesel (sold)| 87 T3 GL (sold) | 91 T3 Carat 4sp (sold) |
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Dogberry
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Joined: January 03, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Northern Thailand and Central Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: R&P for automatic |
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Well folks thought I'd send a quick update... I heard from one manufacturer, a flat NO. Otherwise I’ve received no response from the others (although it’s been months). Seems like this road, a faint two track to begin with is dwindling down to nothing...
To be fair I did not offer to "fund" the development, merely posed the question of whether they thought they could make a profit by manufacturing the R&P and recouping through sales.
Maybe someday someone with better credentials i.e. a GW, VC or SC type outfit may get better results.
That said, I’ll keep at it for a bit….
Maybe I’ll try out of country… ?
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