well it's time for an top-end rebuild, 1641? help!?

[theizzardking]

history.
1971 bus dual port 1600
so i was driving back from a camping trip and noticed a MAJOR oil leak, as in i used 4 quarts over 80 miles just to get me home. so now she sits parked and i have a very good feeling the oil leak is coming from the oil cooler as it's dripping down from above the heads and valve cover. that said the compression is running very low when you turn the motor with a wrench it moves very freely and sounds like a very very loose quief , and nobody likes that so i figure if i'm going to waste the time to pull the engine might as well freshen it up while it's out.

plan of action.(correct me if i am wrong)

i'm considering going to a 1641 cause it's cheap and doesn't need any machine work done.
here is the kit i'm looking @
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails_Popup.asp?ProductCode=VWC-311-198-087-BB
or this one
http://www.busdepot.com/details.jsp?partnumber=31119806988

is it easy to go full flow with a top end rebuild ? or does that require a complete disassembly of the case?

is the 1641 a bad option?i heard something about some drawbacks of the slip in 87's, but it didn't explain.

what other options do i have to complete a rebuild/freshen up for under $500

anyone have any good vendors to suggest i'm looking through german supply,cip1, and vwparts.net

other than dremel out a spot for my cht gauge what other things should i add while the engine is out and being worked on? any transmission stuff i should do?

i have a deep sump for it
i want to go full flow
i want to add oil temp gauge
i want dual battery set up while it's out
swap in new fuel lines

is there anything else ?

thanks guys i release this is a multi-pointed question.
feel free to answer whatever you can and just ignore the rest i'm sure other will chime in with their knowledge as well.

thanks again samba community!!!
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
'71 westie "the wanderer"

[jeb1978]

Slip in 87s or 88s are a bad idea on a Bus, in my opinion. The bigger bore is made by having thinner cylinder walls. Thinner walls tend to overheat and warp easier on a Bus that runs hotter and harder than a Bug.

If you don't want to machine the case or heads, I'd stick with the stock 85.5 pistons. aircooled.net sells a dished set that lowers your compression a 1/2 point, which I think was stock on a '71 Bus.

You can full flow an assembled case... search in the Performance/Engines forum as there's several good posts in there how to do it.
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1969 Westfalia 1600 Single Port

[theizzardking]

wow nothing....... nobody has anything to suggest? am i @ least on the right track? 20 views and not even a "do a search" response.... i ASSuME that since no one has said anything i'm doing pretty good right here.



just as i say that i get some good feed back, thanks Bartoli !@!!@!
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
'71 westie "the wanderer"

[busman78]

Stick with stock 85.5 P&L's. Lowering compression will increase the thermal temps. You will need to get the heads checked. Have you done a compression test yet? That is with a gauge.

[tnpanscraper]

Dude, my 87's are just fine. No trouble... Does not run hot...... No full flow on mine....


-Brad
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[Mark]

I have a 1641, but IMHO would have stayed with the 1600 instead.

The lure of performance gain (hardly noticeable) without machinework is tempting but not worth it, (again IMHO).

The thinner walls are just that more prone to warping if you experience overtemp conditions.
A 1641 has to work harder in a bus than a bug=more heat.
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www.zwerks.ca

[Remark]

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but does anyone have any experience with the top end kit from Mid American Motorworks that includes the heads? Was looking at this kit today, but not sure of the quality.

[Jody '71]

If you've only got 500 at your disposal, you don't have a lot of options. A quality DD CHT gauge and wiring harness will be almost 100 alone. Full flowing your case by a machinst that knows what he's doing is very important, the parts for that set-up with quality parts is gonna be more than 100 I would think.
I would not recommed slip ins for your Bus. Either stay with the 1600 or go with a 1776 set-up, but that would drain the rest of your $. You would need more.
IMO, with 500 bucks, I would fix your oil leak(s) first, then consider what else needs to be done within your budget, you say the compression is low, how did you check that???
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'66 Beetle
2011 Hyundai Elantra Touring

[theizzardking]

i already have a dd cht gauge and have access to free machining @ an aircraft manufacture, so they know what they are doing so i think i'm good on that stuff i'm just looking at parts in general,i'm really liking the feed back on the 1641, i think i may go stocker then and will check out the pistons with the dished head.

what about home dudes question on manufacture i've managed to turn up some stuff on cip1 it seems that alot of people think the quality is crap, anyone care to say something about this?

can i get into a 1776 for $500 or so without machine work?? i have a few extra dollars to play with but not much.

as far as compression checks go, i've just been assessing it via the poor mans method, via engine braking and turning the motor by hand.
you can tell it's really really weak, other than that i'm just hoping for the best. when i get it out and freshened up.

is it best to source parts individually or as a kit?

thanks again guys! have a great weekend!
_________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
'71 westie "the wanderer"

[jah_B]

A leak down test will tell you where it's leaking from. If it's the valves that are leaking, that means a cheapo valve job will run you a buck twenty or so, and a good head rework, at least the whole $500. If it's just P&Cs and rings, that'll save ya. Good luck!
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1984 CABRIOLET 6spd, quaife diff, Neuspeed springs, sway bars, tie bar, short shift kit, bilstein shocks, 16X7 RSE 3pc wheels, BFG TA 205 40s

1972 tintop P30 CAMPMOBILE: M/T, 1.7L, dual kadrons, 019 diz. Sunny the S'kool Bus


You gotta know what you don't know. That's the key to wisdom. man.

[Jody '71]

You will be rolling the dice with a machinist that doesn't know exactly how to full flow your case and adapt the the oil pump for the full flow configuration for a VW type 1 engine, much less considering what type of fittings you plan to use and what type of oil hoses are in your budget. I would take a VW engine to an aircraft machinist to modify it for an airplane (this has been done before), but I wonder if such machinists are aware that with the type 1 set-up that the full flow kit has to clear the rear mustache bar just right. And that the angles of the AN fittings have to be exact, and so on and so on. If you already have the DD CHT setup, there is no reason to dremel out any type of fitting, the ring terminal fits on the plug once the plug crush washer is removed. Keep in mind that the ring terminal is your crush washer, and that it must seat exactly perfect, and don't expect the ring terminal to last for maybe one or two additional plug changes, and even then that's when it's done properly.
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'66 Beetle
2011 Hyundai Elantra Touring

[towd]

Hmmm,, sounds like a dunebuggy donor in the making ...

[Desertbusman]

You will only have $483 for parts. The most important expendenture is Tom Wilsons book.
Go with the stock 1584 Cofap/Mahle jugs, flat top, which should be $90-100. The big cost will be the heads. If you have German heads have a VW head pro check them out and rebuild them. New guides, exh. valves, flycutting, and 3 angle valve job. That will be somewhere around $200. The big decision is if you are to open the case and do a good engine. Main thing there is again get a VW Pro to inspect the case and crank. That's going to determine a whole bunch. Keep in mind that with the jugs and heads you are half way to a good engine. Nows the time to do the rest of it so that it's a done deal for many years. If you rebuild the short block be sure and have it balanced. If your case is good it still might need line boring. Busses are rough on the bearing saddles. That's another reason to balance it. To completely do a real good engine costs around $800 or so for parts and machining. You would want to rebuild the rods and I would always put in a new cam and lifters. Rebuilt German lifters are better. For an extra $20 you could put in an Engle bus cam. Whatever you do the main thing is to follow every step in Wilsons book.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy