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FI system; car wont run
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m2008s
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: FI system; car wont run Reply with quote

EDIT: 11/4

so the car will not run, i have better edited posts on page 4 near bottom. i need to figure out how to test and adjust the tps.

_____________________________________________

orig post:

FI system question, when the car is cold it runs fine. when its warm, it sumbles and runs extremely rich

specs: 71 square stock 1600cc with FI 4 spd

after testing sensors it seems the intake air temp sensor is sending bad readings, when the car is warm and i unplug it... it runs PERFECT

can i leave it unplugged and drive? im broke at the moment especially with the economy the way it is.. i have a 80 mi round trip drive tomorrow to get some $ working... im just wanting to know if its OK if i leave it unplugged.

will it harm the motor?

i know it wont start when its cold and unplugged, its not enriched... etc. so i plug it in. when its warm i unplug it.

please let me know im new to aircooleds and type 3s, i really appreciate the help and im sure barney does too (my purple squareback)

ill post pics if you want Wink.

apparently has 11-12k mi on rebuilt motor, has a small pushrod tube leak (want to get spring loaded ones), has shitty exhaust and rigged up heater boxes that dont leak exhaust.

thanks- mike
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Last edited by m2008s on Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to know because mine runs like crap when it is cold, but fine when it is hot.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine runs crappy with the temp sensor plugged in. Unplug it and she runs great.The only thing i've noticed is lousy MPG 23-26 and cold starting takes 2 tries to get running.I have tried switching the air temp sensor to a known good one and the problem persists...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a common issue with D-Jet, and could very well be wires touching under the boot when that sensor is plugged in. Make sure that the head temp sensor is not out of specs- the temp sensors must work in tandem.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intake air is a relatively minor parameter to the ECU. The only thing to be wary of is that although it runs rich, you don't know if it is rich under all rpm/load conditions, so unpluggint it might leave it too lean under some conditions. Consider a very temp fix (and watch for signs of overheating), but stick around here and diagnose the richness. I suggest starting a new thread for the problem (or cntinue this one) instead of adding to the already way too long EFI sticky.

Check all sensor and wires electrically and also the fuel pressure for starters.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil is correct, in that the system will run rich (across the board according to Bosch) with it unplugged. I ran into this over the summer on my 71 Notch, and I never found the real cause to my problem. I swapped that sensor 4 times (with 3 different sensors), and they never fixed the problem. Just so you know, there are 2 different size sensors, but they both have the same part number. Put an ohm meter across the sensor, and see if it's 300 ohms cold, and 200 ohms after it's warmed up. If you get these numbers (or something close to them), the sensor is good, and you'll need to start looking for a vacuum leak, or other problem.

In my case, I pulled the entire FI off the car, re-sealed everything, and that still didn't fix the problem. But, then I rebuilt a harness (I used a t-4 harness, and cut off about 2 feet from it) and installed new ends on it, and this seems to have fixed the problem. I'm still looking at having a new harness built though, as the harness IS the weak link on the FI system. I hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Phil is correct, in that the system will run rich (across the board according to Bosch) with it unplugged. I ran into this over the summer on my 71 Notch, and I never found the real cause to my problem. I swapped that sensor 4 times (with 3 different sensors), and they never fixed the problem. Just so you know, there are 2 different size sensors, but they both have the same part number. Put an ohm meter across the sensor, and see if it's 300 ohms cold, and 200 ohms after it's warmed up. If you get these numbers (or something close to them), the sensor is good, and you'll need to start looking for a vacuum leak, or other problem.

In my case, I pulled the entire FI off the car, re-sealed everything, and that still didn't fix the problem. But, then I rebuilt a harness (I used a t-4 harness, and cut off about 2 feet from it) and installed new ends on it, and this seems to have fixed the problem. I'm still looking at having a new harness built though, as the harness IS the weak link on the FI system. I hope this helps.


the harness is the weakest link, followed closely by the MAP sensor. I think the best way to fix our harnesses would be to use a GM style large Male/Female plug (the sealed kind) and create a new harness with L-Jet style connectors from scratch. utilize the OG wires and big plug to the ECU, then attach each individual wire to the male GM plug, leaving the new connection just inside the engine compartment. then run the new female GM plug harness with the new wires and L-jet plugs to the engine.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSMskater wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Phil is correct, in that the system will run rich (across the board according to Bosch) with it unplugged. I ran into this over the summer on my 71 Notch, and I never found the real cause to my problem. I swapped that sensor 4 times (with 3 different sensors), and they never fixed the problem. Just so you know, there are 2 different size sensors, but they both have the same part number. Put an ohm meter across the sensor, and see if it's 300 ohms cold, and 200 ohms after it's warmed up. If you get these numbers (or something close to them), the sensor is good, and you'll need to start looking for a vacuum leak, or other problem.

In my case, I pulled the entire FI off the car, re-sealed everything, and that still didn't fix the problem. But, then I rebuilt a harness (I used a t-4 harness, and cut off about 2 feet from it) and installed new ends on it, and this seems to have fixed the problem. I'm still looking at having a new harness built though, as the harness IS the weak link on the FI system. I hope this helps.


the harness is the weakest link, followed closely by the MAP sensor. I think the best way to fix our harnesses would be to use a GM style large Male/Female plug (the sealed kind) and create a new harness with L-Jet style connectors from scratch. utilize the OG wires and big plug to the ECU, then attach each individual wire to the male GM plug, leaving the new connection just inside the engine compartment. then run the new female GM plug harness with the new wires and L-jet plugs to the engine.


I think I'd rather have Jeff Bowlsby build a new harness for me. He's familiar with D-jet, uses modern automotive grade wire, has all the different sized tubes for the step downs, can convert the injector ends to L-jet, and the biggie, he has done a few of these already (experienced). I know it took me 3 afternoons just modifying my t-4 harness, and I'm experienced with doing automotive wiring. Shocked Trying to get the numbers back on the wires, and pulling them thru the tubes was very hard, and I'd rather not try that again. I have a 71 and or a 72 harness here I could send him for a sample, but I already know I'd like to make a couple of changes for items like TS 2 (where it exits the harness), and the elimination of the Cold Start parts of the harness.
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
JSMskater wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
Phil is correct, in that the system will run rich (across the board according to Bosch) with it unplugged. I ran into this over the summer on my 71 Notch, and I never found the real cause to my problem. I swapped that sensor 4 times (with 3 different sensors), and they never fixed the problem. Just so you know, there are 2 different size sensors, but they both have the same part number. Put an ohm meter across the sensor, and see if it's 300 ohms cold, and 200 ohms after it's warmed up. If you get these numbers (or something close to them), the sensor is good, and you'll need to start looking for a vacuum leak, or other problem.

In my case, I pulled the entire FI off the car, re-sealed everything, and that still didn't fix the problem. But, then I rebuilt a harness (I used a t-4 harness, and cut off about 2 feet from it) and installed new ends on it, and this seems to have fixed the problem. I'm still looking at having a new harness built though, as the harness IS the weak link on the FI system. I hope this helps.


the harness is the weakest link, followed closely by the MAP sensor. I think the best way to fix our harnesses would be to use a GM style large Male/Female plug (the sealed kind) and create a new harness with L-Jet style connectors from scratch. utilize the OG wires and big plug to the ECU, then attach each individual wire to the male GM plug, leaving the new connection just inside the engine compartment. then run the new female GM plug harness with the new wires and L-jet plugs to the engine.


I think I'd rather have Jeff Bowlsby build a new harness for me. He's familiar with D-jet, uses modern automotive grade wire, has all the different sized tubes for the step downs, can convert the injector ends to L-jet, and the biggie, he has done a few of these already (experienced). I know it took me 3 afternoons just modifying my t-4 harness, and I'm experienced with doing automotive wiring. Shocked Trying to get the numbers back on the wires, and pulling them thru the tubes was very hard, and I'd rather not try that again. I have a 71 and or a 72 harness here I could send him for a sample, but I already know I'd like to make a couple of changes for items like TS 2 (where it exits the harness), and the elimination of the Cold Start parts of the harness.


any idea what he's charging these days? I didn't know that anyone was doing this stuff...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSMskater wrote:
any idea what he's charging these days? I didn't know that anyone was doing this stuff...


I don't know what he's charging at this time. I just sent him an e-mail, asking him about doing t-3 harnesses though. Still waiting to hear back from him. I'll let you know when I hear anything.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is he the guy who wanted $3-400 for a new repro harness? Hope I'm wrong...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex608 wrote:
Mine runs crappy with the temp sensor plugged in. Unplug it and she runs great.The only thing i've noticed is lousy MPG 23-26 and cold starting takes 2 tries to get running.I have tried switching the air temp sensor to a known good one and the problem persists...


exactly how mine is. just took her on a 120 mi round trip got 28 mpg at 75mph, ran great! no issues
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
Is he the guy who wanted $3-400 for a new repro harness? Hope I'm wrong...


Nope you're not wrong. That's the rough price he gave, because he's not set up to do t-3s (he does 914s). According to him, the only used parts are the plastic plugs on the harness, everything else is new, including the rubber boots, and all the terminals, including the ECU pieces.
I'm sending him a sample this week, so he can give me a better price quote (he gave me a rough one sight unseen), and give me an idea of the turn around time.
I guess this is the price you have to pay to keep the FI in good running condition. That's about the same price as a set of ICTs. Shocked
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Is he the guy who wanted $3-400 for a new repro harness? Hope I'm wrong...


Nope you're not wrong. That's the rough price he gave, because he's not set up to do t-3s (he does 914s). According to him, the only used parts are the plastic plugs on the harness, everything else is new, including the rubber boots, and all the terminals, including the ECU pieces.
I'm sending him a sample this week, so he can give me a better price quote (he gave me a rough one sight unseen), and give me an idea of the turn around time.
I guess this is the price you have to pay to keep the FI in good running condition. That's about the same price as a set of ICTs. Shocked


for 300 dollars I'll just go and switch to megasquirt and still have a hundred left over!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="JSMskater"]
Bobnotch wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Is he the guy who wanted $3-400 for a new repro harness? Hope I'm wrong...


Nope you're not wrong. That's the rough price he gave, because he's not set up to do t-3s (he does 914s). According to him, the only used parts are the plastic plugs on the harness, everything else is new, including the rubber boots, and all the terminals, including the ECU pieces.
I'm sending him a sample this week, so he can give me a better price quote (he gave me a rough one sight unseen), and give me an idea of the turn around time.
I guess this is the price you have to pay to keep the FI in good running condition. That's about the same price as a set of ICTs. Shocked

I payed $225 for a N.O.S. Type 3 harness. Considering labor, that seems reasonable. Think about how long the old ones lasted: 30 years. If you pay $300, that is $10 per a year. That is less than a tank of gasoline, or any other maintenance items.

for 300 dollars I'll just go and switch to megasquirt and still have a hundred left over!


If you went with aftermarket, you have to consider setup, which can take a good chunk of time. I rather pay an extra four to six hours and have something that plugs right in, and looks factory.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="architect_7"]
JSMskater wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
Is he the guy who wanted $3-400 for a new repro harness? Hope I'm wrong...


Nope you're not wrong. That's the rough price he gave, because he's not set up to do t-3s (he does 914s). According to him, the only used parts are the plastic plugs on the harness, everything else is new, including the rubber boots, and all the terminals, including the ECU pieces.
I'm sending him a sample this week, so he can give me a better price quote (he gave me a rough one sight unseen), and give me an idea of the turn around time.
I guess this is the price you have to pay to keep the FI in good running condition. That's about the same price as a set of ICTs. Shocked

I payed $225 for a N.O.S. Type 3 harness. Considering labor, that seems reasonable. Think about how long the old ones lasted: 30 years. If you pay $300, that is $10 per a year. That is less than a tank of gasoline, or any other maintenance items.

for 300 dollars I'll just go and switch to megasquirt and still have a hundred left over!


If you went with aftermarket, you have to consider setup, which can take a good chunk of time. I rather pay an extra four to six hours and have something that plugs right in, and looks factory.


thats the beauty of it adriel... it uses all stock parts and the only things that get swapped out are the ECU and wiring harness and MAP sensor, the big three "wear items" on D jet. this setup literally does just plug right in. and I can tune it via laptop, see A/F ratios in real time, control spark if I wanted to later on.... theres nothing to fab. no guess work. the plenums and all that is already done for us.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSMskater wrote:

thats the beauty of it adriel... it uses all stock parts and the only things that get swapped out are the ECU and wiring harness and MAP sensor, the big three "wear items" on D jet. this setup literally does just plug right in. and I can tune it via laptop, see A/F ratios in real time, control spark if I wanted to later on.... theres nothing to fab. no guess work. the plenums and all that is already done for us.


But, in my case I'd have to buy a lap top to program it. Now this would get added into your 300 dollar start up cost. So now that 300 dollar MS is now 900 bucks. Remember, not all of us have a lap top sitting around for use on the car, or the forums. Wink Don't get me wrong, I like GM's FI (at least the earlier versions, as I've seen them go well over 300,000 miles easily), but some of the replacement pieces are being made "off shore", and the quality isn't as good.
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone loan me $40 or let me come over and show them a good time

as i need exhaust and im laid off Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
JSMskater wrote:

thats the beauty of it adriel... it uses all stock parts and the only things that get swapped out are the ECU and wiring harness and MAP sensor, the big three "wear items" on D jet. this setup literally does just plug right in. and I can tune it via laptop, see A/F ratios in real time, control spark if I wanted to later on.... theres nothing to fab. no guess work. the plenums and all that is already done for us.


But, in my case I'd have to buy a lap top to program it. Now this would get added into your 300 dollar start up cost. So now that 300 dollar MS is now 900 bucks. Remember, not all of us have a lap top sitting around for use on the car, or the forums. Wink Don't get me wrong, I like GM's FI (at least the earlier versions, as I've seen them go well over 300,000 miles easily), but some of the replacement pieces are being made "off shore", and the quality isn't as good.


you could run it off a desktop if you wanted to. just put the computer on a cart out in the driveway and hook it up oldschool with some extension cords. Laughing

the only GM parts I'd use are the FI harness and the intake temp sensors. the rest of the stuff used would be bosch. the ECU as far as I'm aware uses open-source style software on generic hardware. the best part, IMO, about building the thing yourself is you can fix it yourself too, if something should fail.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok then ill just leave my post to you guys d'oh!
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