Torque required to spin crank? Starter won’t spin new build.

[Texasdoc]

Short: Rebuilding a 40hp, upgraded to 1385. Starter/battery won’t spin the motor. What is the torque required to spin the motor with pistons WITHOUT plugs?

Long: This is not my first engine rebuild but my first ACVW. I did not split the block but took it all the way down. New pistons, rings, cylinders, refreshed heads, lapped the valves, set the valve lash, torqued the flywheel, torqued the crank pulley, etc. Added full flow oil filter setup. I have the motor back in the car and am just trying to turn the motor over to verify oil pressure. The coil is not connected but the spark plugs are in.

Battery is at 6.3V - it has been on a charger/maintainer for about a year. I had the starter out and replaced the bearing at the time. The started worked on the bench (no load).

When all back in the car, the starter will not turn over the motor at all. This is going from the battery straight to the starter with jumper cables. I’m activating the starter with a 10g lead to the battery. The battery’s 6.3V drops to about 5.4V when the starter is engaged. I hear the solenoid click and the starter buzzes, but no movement of the crank.

If I put 12V to the starter, it will turn over the motor (so nothing is seized/interference) but it only rotates slowly... glug, glug.... glug..........glug. The ignition system is not installed at all. I’m not trying to start it, just trying to get it to spin.

My thoughts are bad battery, bad starter, or engine is too tight. Trying to find the specs on what the required torque to spin the 1385 *should* be. I will take the starter back out and make sure the contacts are clean, hook up battery cables directly instead of the jumper cables. I will take the battery to have it load tested as well, but since 12V wouldn’t spin it, I don’t think it is the battery.

Any other thoughts? Help? Ideas?

[mukluk]

The standard VW starter isn't self supporting, it must be installed with the transaxle bushing present when operated. Bench testing a standard VW starter without some form of external support for the output shaft can damage the starter.

That aside, can you turn the crank pulley by hand? Did you possibly over torque the case mating hardware? Is the crank pulley a stock unit or aftermarket? Did you set the flywheel endplay correctly? Is the full flow oil pump of a compatible type with the camshaft gear you have installed?
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[Texasdoc]

Thanks for the reply. I had the starter out of the case and applied voltage for a a few seconds, just to verify it worked. I didn’t run it for any length of time (no load) and it *appeared* fine. Do you think this damaged the starter?

I did not split the case at all. I didn’t touch the case mating bolts/nuts.

I can turn the crank by hand - with a wrench on the crank nut. I can barely turn it by grasping the fan belt and rotating. It seems harder to turn than most of the videos I’ve seen on YouTube.

The original crank pulley was rusted to the point I didn’t trust it. I have the standard aftermarket aluminum pulley with the timing marks. I set the crank play with the washers as instructed in the VW rebuild book by Tom Wilson. I don’t remember what the play was, but it was at the upper end of “normal”.

It has the same oil pump that was in it when I got it. I drilled/tapped/plugged the oil pump outflow, installed a full flow pump cover plate, and drilled/tapped the oil feed line for oil return.

P.S. - I love the Avatar

[mukluk]

It's possible the starter was damaged, but this is also assuming the starter was good in the first place before your bench check. A 6v starter running on 12v should have no problem spinning a small displacement engine.

There's a recent thread in the '68+ section where somebody had an aftermarket aluminum pulley basically seize up the engine when it was fully tightened down. Maybe try loosening or removing the pulley to see if that frees things up for you.

Where in Texas are you located? There may be some folks on here local to you that could help.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[Texasdoc]

I'm in Keller - NE of Ft Worth. The starter seemed to rotate the 40 hp before I started messing with it. But come to think of it, the PO had installed what appeared to be a Ford starter relay between the battery and starter. I just remembered that. But he still had the battery {out from the relay) hooked up to the normal post on the starter. Hmmm, I'll have to think about that one.

I'll try loosening the crank pulley and see what that does as well. I'll also see if putting the stock pulley back on frees it up. I won't run it with that - I'll have to get a new/used OEM part.

[mukluk]

[Texasdoc]

Ok, mine is about 30 ft-lbs with the aftermarket pulley and the plugs in. Replacing the pulley with stock is closer to 20, so I'm closer (this is a new 1385 so is expect it to be a bit more that a 1200, I guess). Can't get a torque wrech on the nut installed in the car - I only have a long 30mm socket. Let me play with these for a while and see what I come up with. Thanks again.

[Dougy Dee]

I got caught by this 20 years ago...I should have used the original flywheel shims.

Did you check for thrust bearing movement prior to messing with shimming?

Too much shim makes the Flywheel tight to the crank. Now add in thrust bearing movement.. and now you've got a tight engine with what appears to be correct endplay.

[heimlich]

Make sure the engine spins. If it spins then you know nothing is locking it up.
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[slalombuggy]

Is it a black anodized EMPI aluminum pulley? If it is pull it off and try to turn the engine over without it. You wouldn't be the first guy bit in the ass by these pieces of shit, that are too big. Look at the pulley snout in the cut threads and see if its galled. I've seen this 3 times. It's the only empi part I've seen have repetative failures.

brad

[Texasdoc]

It is the polished aluminum one. I looked at the grooves and they look ok. I'm at SEMA today and stopped by the EMPI tent. Although I stood there for about 10 minutes, nobody was interested in talking to me. While there I saw a JayCee pulley that looked well machined. Are these any better?

I'll check out the starter when I get home to see if it can turn the stock pulley. Is there any way to check the shims and thrust bearing with the motor in the car. I'd like to check it again.

[bluebus86]

make sure your valve lash is set!
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[mukluk]

[Texasdoc]

Still no joy. Replaced the aftermarket pulley with the stock pulley, replaced the starter with a remanufactured unit. New battery cables so rust/corrosion is not an issue. Still won’t spin the motor quick enough. It just chugs a few times, then stops. After about 6-8 seconds of cranking (2-3 revolutions of the motor, motor stops rotating and the voltage of the battery has dropped to 4.6v. I’m going to take the battery to the local auto parts store to see if they can load test it.

I checked the thrust bearing play when I rebuilt it and it was in spec. It was at the top end and I couldn’t find any local washers, so I just put the old ones back in. If I end up taking the motor back out, I’ll check it again.

I don’t have the ignition connected and no fuel yet. Maybe once I get those set, a little fire in the hole may help it rotate enough to start.

I’ll come back and report if I make any more progress.

[flyboy161]

I’m sorry if I missed this, but you are just putting the crank pulley on at 36 ft pounds right? I mean not using an impact wrench right?
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[Texasdoc]

Right, just at 35 ft-lbs.

Battery was bad. Wouldn't push 400 amps and dropped to 4v under load. I've ordered an Optima Redtop 6v.

[Erik G]

you do have a good 6v bushing in the trans, right?
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[74 Thing]

Just put some jumper cables on your battery to a running car battery then try to crank your engine.

[Texasdoc]

Yes, new starter bushing. Jumper pack (12v) will spin the motor but it still rotates somewhat slowly. I haven't held the 12v pack on it for too long as I don't want to burn out the starter.

I haven't put a known good 6v or 12v battery on it - just a jumper pack. Waiting for a new battery. Ignition is not hot so I don't know if the 12v jumper pack spins it enough to start.

[Erik G]

12v from the jump box won't hurt the starter
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