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F.Y.I. short Type 1 swing axle's in a type 3
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flyinglow94
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:28 am    Post subject: F.Y.I. short Type 1 swing axle's in a type 3 Reply with quote

Well the heading says it all, I thought I would post on the switching of long type 3 swing axle's or even long type 1 axle's to the shorter type 1 swing axle's. I had recently done this to my wife's 67 Squareback because the Rocket alloy 5 spokes and 205/60/15 in the rear can get a little to close and even at times rub. I am getting ready to paint it in the next few months and do not want to damage the new paint or fenders.

So, here is what I had to do. First I had to pull the trans (after draining the fluid) as I had to change the type 1 hockey stick that came with the car with a type 3 that I had and the type 1 would not work for first and second gears all the time.

Second, after I had the trans out I unbolted the six 8mm nuts from each of the side covers. Than using large snap ring pliers I removed the snap ring from the side gear that holds the fulcrum plates and axle in. After pulling the axle fulcrum plates and even the gear for inspection for cracks or ware. I went in reverse but reinstalled the short axle set. Before I switched them I took pictures of the axle tube side by side to show the difference. The end castings seemed to be the only difference by 1.2" or almost 30mm Quite a difference. Also before installing the new axle's I had polished the ends to prevent cracking and prolong the life of the axle's.

Third and finally after the trans is back in the car. I then bolted up the type 3 backing plates but I had to to use the seal plates from the short axle tubes. The type 3 seal plates were different in the seal location and would not bolt down to hold the backing plates. Then I needed to measure and machine the snout of the drum down for the shorter axle splines. Now, if you are putting bug drum brakes back on you would just take the .570" from the front of the drum spline snout and be done. But I noticed on the type 3 (64-65 wide 5 and 66-73 two piece drums) that the drum sat further away from the backing plate about .200" and the brakes would miss some of the drum. So, I machined .200" from the inner snout splines and the other .370 from the outer snout splines for the perfect fit.

Also you will notice that the upper rubber stop is very close to the rim (about .500"). On some rim off sets you may need to shave some of this off.

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hpw
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post, I'm doing the same thing to my 66 ghia that had been converted

to long axle/tubes and t3 brakes. Going back to short axle/tubes and keeping

the t3 brakes. Do you have any pictures of what you had done to the drums?
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hpw
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but I had to to use the seal plates from the short axle tubes. The type 3 seal plates were different in the seal location and would not bolt down to hold the backing plates.


sorry Embarassed but can you explain or show a picture, if you have one, of what

you mean by this?
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HenrikL
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have done more or less the same to my 1964 Notchback, except that i used 1968- Type 1 brakes with 5/130 drums.

Note that you can only use the 1965-66 Type 1 "seal plates" together with the 1968- Type 1 brakes or Type 3 brakes. The older Type 1 "seal plates" are different.

After the conversion my hand brake wires were too long. I have bought Type 1 wires, but not tried them on yet.
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Nectar_F
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HenrikL wrote:
I have done more or less the same to my 1964 Notchback, except that i used 1968- Type 1 brakes with 5/130 drums.

Note that you can only use the 1965-66 Type 1 "seal plates" together with the 1968- Type 1 brakes or Type 3 brakes. The older Type 1 "seal plates" are different.

After the conversion my hand brake wires were too long. I have bought Type 1 wires, but not tried them on yet.


What has everyone done regarding the handbrake cable in the past?

Also, why was there a need to trim down the inner snout of the drums, to fit back on the original backing plate? I know the outer needs to be, but its the first itme I have heard that the inner needs doing!.

THanks, NEctar.
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flyinglow94
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote="hpw"]
Quote:
but I had to to use the seal plates from the short axle tubes. The type 3 seal plates were different in the seal location and would not bolt down to hold the backing plates.


sorry Embarassed but can you explain or show a picture, if you have one, of what

you mean by this?[/quote]

The seal plate from the early swing axles were open on both ends meaning that the axle seal could be installed from the front or the back of the seal plate. Where the later seal plate the seal could only be installed from the back side and also had a sling plate/washer. But I also believe that the register for the bearing is a little deeper on the earlier plate and when I tried to install the later seal plate/retainer it would not tighten down far enough to hold the backing plate.

quote="Nectar_F"]
HenrikL wrote:
I have done more or less the same to my 1964 Notchback, except that i used 1968- Type 1 brakes with 5/130 drums.

Note that you can only use the 1965-66 Type 1 "seal plates" together with the 1968- Type 1 brakes or Type 3 brakes. The older Type 1 "seal plates" are different.

After the conversion my hand brake wires were too long. I have bought Type 1 wires, but not tried them on yet.


What has everyone done regarding the handbrake cable in the past?

Also, why was there a need to trim down the inner snout of the drums, to fit back on the original backing plate? I know the outer needs to be, but its the first time I have heard that the inner needs doing!.

THanks, NEctar.[/quote]

The stock hand brake cable seams to be just fine thay are a little long but I don't see a problem as of yet.
The reason I trimmed the inner snout is that there was excessive space between the drum and the backing plate. I can only think it is due to the seal rings that the seals ride on. I have seen two different sizes in these rings, long and short. The two sets I have were both long which sticks the drums out more than they should.
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wolfman's brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flyinglow94 wrote:
quote="hpw"]
Quote:
but I had to to use the seal plates from the short axle tubes. The type 3 seal plates were different in the seal location and would not bolt down to hold the backing plates.


sorry Embarassed but can you explain or show a picture, if you have one, of what

you mean by this?


The seal plate from the early swing axles were open on both ends meaning that the axle seal could be installed from the front or the back of the seal plate. Where the later seal plate the seal could only be installed from the back side and also had a sling plate/washer. But I also believe that the register for the bearing is a little deeper on the earlier plate and when I tried to install the later seal plate/retainer it would not tighten down far enough to hold the backing plate.

quote="Nectar_F"]
HenrikL wrote:
I have done more or less the same to my 1964 Notchback, except that i used 1968- Type 1 brakes with 5/130 drums.

Note that you can only use the 1965-66 Type 1 "seal plates" together with the 1968- Type 1 brakes or Type 3 brakes. The older Type 1 "seal plates" are different.

After the conversion my hand brake wires were too long. I have bought Type 1 wires, but not tried them on yet.


What has everyone done regarding the handbrake cable in the past?

Also, why was there a need to trim down the inner snout of the drums, to fit back on the original backing plate? I know the outer needs to be, but its the first time I have heard that the inner needs doing!.

THanks, NEctar.[/quote]

The stock hand brake cable seams to be just fine thay are a little long but I don't see a problem as of yet.
The reason I trimmed the inner snout is that there was excessive space between the drum and the backing plate. I can only think it is due to the seal rings that the seals ride on. I have seen two different sizes in these rings, long and short. The two sets I have were both long which sticks the drums out more than they should.[/quote]

supposedly to get the proper adjusment range in the cables you need to run shorter ones or make a spacer for the stock type3 ones.I just finished bolting my tranny back up with the short axles and besides adding fluid and axle boots the only thing left is figuring out what to do about the brake cables.

I was told make a 1" spacer tube but I'm not sure if you're suppose to do it at the drum or up at the pan end.anybody know?? Think
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wolfman's brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and how wide are those rocket 5 spokes,5.5" ?
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wolfman's brother
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to answer the ? about the drum mod needed you have a machine shop take about 1/2" or so off the snout off on a lathe,that's all.

I had been told 1/2" and 5/8" by different people and couldn't get a solid answer so I went in between with 9/16th of an inch.just hung the tranny and test fitted everything and it looks like we're ready to r&r!
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flyinglow94
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rocket 5's are 5.5 but don't have the 1/2" extra spacing it out. You can see this in my pictures in profile. I have machined the pedistols down on the Eagle alloys for clearance.
Did you have or measure on your conversion added space between you drum and backing plate? When I had test fitted my drums I could have just taken the end of the snout off but then the drum and backing plate space would be excessive an added .200 and the shoes would have not touched all of the drum surface. I can only think that the seal spacers were both the same (wide) I did not have the shorter, earlier seal spacers.

I had taken off about 9/16" or .562
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bigwhit
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AWESOME POST!!! My question is, if I was to switch to a Type 1 Short Axle could I just use a CB Wide 5 Disk Brake kit? Wouldn't it just bolt on, with out all the extra hassle/machining needed to the drums?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigwhit wrote:
AWESOME POST!!! My question is, if I was to switch to a Type 1 Short Axle could I just use a CB Wide 5 Disk Brake kit? Wouldn't it just bolt on, with out all the extra hassle/machining needed to the drums?


Yes the CB,EMPI and A/C industries kits would just bolt on with no machining needed because they are designed for the bug(not type 3) in the first place. You would also see the wheels come in a little more. If they are the kit that does not change the off set like the 1" wider disk brake kits by A/C Industries.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flyinglow94 wrote:
Rocket 5's are 5.5 but don't have the 1/2" extra spacing it out. You can see this in my pictures in profile. I have machined the pedistols down on the Eagle alloys for clearance.
Did you have or measure on your conversion added space between you drum and backing plate? When I had test fitted my drums I could have just taken the end of the snout off but then the drum and backing plate space would be excessive an added .200 and the shoes would have not touched all of the drum surface. I can only think that the seal spacers were both the same (wide) I did not have the shorter, earlier seal spacers.

I had taken off about 9/16" or .562


I'm confused by what you mean when you're talking about shorter earlier seal spacers. the only thing non-type 3 back there now besides the axles are the bearing caps.I didn't have the matching type 1's to the axle tubes so I bought the billet ISP ones they sale.I got everything fitted on one side and my drum fully encases the shoes with no mods to the inside of it like you describe doing. Think
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

is it possible to do this procedure with the trans still in?
cheers
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the trans/engine in the car, I don't think you'll get the retainer plate off the gearbox, as it will foul against the frame horns. Be nice if it would, lot of work pulling the engine and gearbox just to put some different wheels on!

Cheers

Steve
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The axle tube will come out with the trans in the car. You just have to hold your mouth right.
Also, just unbolt the mounts from the cross member and jack the transmission/engine up slightly.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: F.Y.I. short Type 1 swing axle's in a type 3 Reply with quote

Wonderful post flyinglow94!!! I just purchased a 1964 notchback and completed the removal of the long axles. The short axles and tubes are installed and the tranny is back in the car. My problem is that the bearing caps do not fit tight against the backing plates, nor do they create a seal to keep the gear oil from leaking.

flyinglow94 wrote:

Third and finally after the trans is back in the car. I then bolted up the type 3 backing plates but I had to to use the seal plates from the short axle tubes. The type 3 seal plates were different in the seal location and would not bolt down to hold the backing plates.


I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "seal plates". Do you mean the cap the covers the wheel bearing and bolts through the backing plate to the axle tube flange? I've read that the early (short axle bearing caps) are different than the later (long axle bearing caps).

I've sent my drums off to be machined also. Once again, thanks for a VERY informative post. I can't wait to see how the new narrowed track will look on my notch.

--James
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: F.Y.I. short Type 1 swing axle's in a type 3 Reply with quote

B.P.A. James wrote:
I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "seal plates". Do you mean the cap the covers the wheel bearing and bolts through the backing plate to the axle tube flange? I've read that the early (short axle bearing caps) are different than the later (long axle bearing caps).

Yes, "seal plates" and "bearing covers" are the same part. Note that you can only use Type 1 65-66 bearing covers with the Type 3 brakes.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: F.Y.I. short Type 1 swing axle's in a type 3 Reply with quote

HenrikL wrote:
Note that you can only use Type 1 65-66 bearing covers with the Type 3 brakes.


Then I assume that I want the bearing spacers from a 65-66 also? Thanks for all your help!
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can this be made a sticky? Good stuff here.
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