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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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 Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Anything is possible.
If Guys like Dennis and Chris don't feel they are right for the waterboxer, I'd listen, very closely.
They know there shite 
Hey, I have run/tested most available parts for the waterboxer and have not had issue with these plugs or Bosch Platinum plugs....but many others have.
I run WC7s and VW oil filters on all my primo waterboxers.
FYI...Nology plug wires has made the largest noticeable increase in power on my engines.....besides haviing them tuned properly.
Yes they are expensive, but worth it IMHO. |
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BoneStock67
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2006
Posts: 439
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I too would take what Dennis says extremely seriously.
He is a truly brilliant guy who has been around these vans for a very long time and pretty much knows everything there is to know about them.
He whipped my van into shape when I first bought it five years ago, establishing a great base of performance that I have been able to maintain with relative ease over the many tens of thousands of miles I have put on it since that time.
As Dennis would say (if he would ever hang out here instead of on the vanagon list), these vans were designed for the long haul. Sure, you can play around with things to improve performance here and there, but everything has a cost, and I absolutely believe him when he says that in this case, the cost is decreased engine longevity.
_________________
1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage
"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi |
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9810
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| rocket j squirrel wrote: |
| ...So it's entirely possible that these plugs will increase the likelihood of detonation. |
In the absence of any evidence or data -- anything is possible.
I do see what your source meant by 'longer reach'. Though I think of the term 'reach' as having a specific meaning when referring to spark plugs (the length of the threads) it seems he was possibly referring to the electrode.
I compared the NGK with the plug I had taken out (Bosch RO 491):
The electrode and ground straps do project farther on the NGK:
Just for fun I compared the spark of the two plugs using a device that offers constant ignition in a pressurized chamber (I used 80 psi).
First the Bosch:
Link
Then the NGK:
Link
Not sure what interpretation is appropriate but it does present the visual difference in spark.
As for pinging. I have done my usual test of driving in 4th gear, 30 mph, slight grade, flooring the pedal -- I listen (engine cover off) for any pinging.
Usually these condition are a worst-case scenario for pinging and yet the engine is still quiet enough to hear well.
I have not heard anything amiss when I went with the NGK (and 40° BTDC timing).
Perhaps another check (after a few thousand miles) would be a peek down the cylinders with an inspection camera? Never used one -- would early pre-ignition damage be visible? |
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BoneStock67
Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2006
Posts: 439
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Cool vids!
_________________
1986 Wolfsburg Westfalia Weekender 2.1L stock
1967 Beetle, now becoming my daily driver again, after a long rest in the garage
"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” -Enrico Fermi |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: |
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the plug electrodes just project more toward the center of the combustion chamber. This will have a similar effect to advancing the ignition timing. If you are that nervous about it, install the plugs and retard the timing a couple degrees.
If the system was perfect the spark kernel would start in the middle of the chamber. That's impossible, so we do the best we can. Some heads have a horrible plug location, some are pretty good (4v heads).
I personally feel these plugs are outstanding, and recommend them to everyone that uses a 14 x 3/4" plug, and have for years.
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AtlasShrugged
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html
How you can read spark plugs and select them - by Gordon Jennings
One of the great engine tuners. Sadly passed away. A great articular and if you jump in and start reading spark plugs, get a spark plug magnifying illuminated reading tool. Too much advance in plain to see on new spark plugs.
If you were using an ineffective spark plug or a spark plug of poor design for a Vanagon AND THEN TUNED the engine to perform well with those plugs..you may and probably do have too much timing advance with the BP6et plugs installed.
If you set the timing close to factory specs and just ran the engine with a poor spark plug choice, you just had an under-performing engine.
The NGK BP6et plugs work well with the stock timing set on my 2.1 engine..or maybe a few degrees more timing. Not too much though. Our engines are not very susceptible to detonation with the stock pistons. |
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Perales
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 2046
Location: Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I would love to here 10c's opinion on this at this point in the discussion.
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-- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino) |
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vanagonjr
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3431
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Anything is possible.
If Guys like Dennis and Chris don't feel they are right for the waterboxer, I'd listen, very closely.
They know there shite |
But one receommends the plugs (NGK BP6ET - tri-electrode) the other dissaproves of - hence the confusion that some expressed.
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| vanagonjr wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
Anything is possible.
If Guys like Dennis and Chris don't feel they are right for the waterboxer, I'd listen, very closely.
They know there shite |
But one receommends the plugs (NGK BP6ET - tri-electrode) the other dissaproves of - hence the confusion that some expressed. |
yup, read this thread from page one to know what Chris initially though of these plugs.
Here is another thread with Chris's opinion dated Sept 09, 2008
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=318120&highlight=ngk+bp6et
Despite what Chris or any other guy can say, there is no evidence or correlation made yet to say one way or the other.
Without evidence or documented cases this could start sounding like that old discussion about potential corrosion created by the stainless steel coolant pipes.
I'd like to understand the timelines for the potential issues here, are we talking about my engine potentially dying on Tuesday instead of Thursday of the next week?
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1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
the plug electrodes just project more toward the center of the combustion chamber. This will have a similar effect to advancing the ignition timing. If you are that nervous about it, install the plugs and retard the timing a couple degrees.
If the system was perfect the spark kernel would start in the middle of the chamber. That's impossible, so we do the best we can. Some heads have a horrible plug location, some are pretty good (4v heads).
I personally feel these plugs are outstanding, and recommend them to everyone that uses a 14 x 3/4" plug, and have for years. |
Well said, John, that is simply and succinctly where it's at, idle speculations by even the most brilliant notwithstanding.
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Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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rocket j squirrel
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: So Lemme Ax tencentlife Sumpthin' |
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| Chris, you've been using these NGK BP6ET plugs in your engines for several years now with no problems. How are you setting the timing? I have a 1.9 |
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lonbordin
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2006
Posts: 29
Location: Bloomington, Indiana, USA
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T3 Pilot
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1507
Location: Deep South of the Great White North
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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I Remember how great it felt to break the 20 second mark on the quarter mile after I installed the NGK's.
Hell Yeah.
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1988 Vanagon
The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel...... |
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Darren2dream
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Joined: April 12, 2011
Posts: 162
Location: Redwood City, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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What a roller coaster of a thread! The first 6 pages seem to call the NGK-BP6ET's the best thing since sliced bread then, a threat about an engine apocalypse (to the tune of: ping, ping ping) if you use them...
I started searching for a Samba spark plug recommendation, found this thread (somewhat shocked I could find no FAQ sticky for Spark Plugs, in the engine section FWIW) read the first 5 pages or so, got super excited & ordered a set online, then finished the thread to read about the threat of engine destruction if I use them... 
I love my little wasserboxer & was only looking to make her happy... Right now I'm thinking it's 7 pages pro, 2-3 posts con.
And yet somehow i'm still freaked out 
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84' Wolfsburg Westy GL 1.9 Manual |
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K58
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006
Posts: 1173
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Same here, I bought these plugs and now am uncertain.
Has there been a final determination one way or another? If not I'll go back to my standard NGK.
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Westy HID Projector Retrofit |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Those are simply the wrong spark plugs. The standard plug is a W7C. The
'D' is a longer reach plug used in the inline 4s. The projected tip brings
the flame front closer to the piston and can increase the propensity
for knock and ping. This can also increase the production of NOx
especially once ping begins. Unfortunately in the Water boxer Ping is
not heard until it is getting really bad. Let the piston meltdowns and
broken rings begin. |
Does this guy recommend leaded gasoline and non detergent oil too?
For how long does the extended tip bring the flame front closer to the piston? A few nanoseconds? The flame starts at the spark plug tip and then burns its way across the cylinder, it just doesn't burn near the spark plug. Also how close to the plug is the piston at the point of ignition? Lets see the ignition takes place some 30° or so before TDC so the piston is a third of an inch away from the head and not right at the head and plug and by the time the piston gets close to the head the flame has propagated well away from the spark plug.
For plugs built to the same quality standards, I doubt that any plug works that much better than another when new, what makes a difference is how they work as they age. When looking at a well used standard plug you will see that the gap has opened and that the center electrode has rounded. These are two things that will cause the plug to need a higher voltage to fire as it ages. On a triple electrode plug with some miles on it the gap should be more stable as there are three gaps to spread the wear over, but the center electrode of a triple electrode plug was very rounded to start with so that might be a negative from day one. Maybe the spark just always starts off the sharp top edge of the electrode? As far as a propensity to foul, maybe someone who has run them for a long time in a less than stellar engine can post a few pics. |
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AtlasShrugged
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
I turned my back on exotic electrode metals for this particular ignition system many years ago; never seemed to work too smoothly with platinums. Copper core electrodes seem to have the right discharge characteristics to work smoothly with it. The BP6ET's have been my preferred plug for many years now, even though they're a bit hard to find. Toldja you'd like 'em!
The triple grounding electrodes offer certain advantages for long-term wear so they do perform well for a lot of miles. The sharpness of the upper edge of the center pole is where the spark is focused, so sharing the load round and round makes that limited resource go farther before it all rounds off. I've found the same true for the Bosch tri-electrode ones, which are a good substitute, but also hard to find sometimes. I slightly prefer NGK, though, but not for any real objective reasons, I've just preferred that brand for years.
Thanks for the tip on NAPA; I'll check to see if my local stores stock these. As it is I order several sets at a time from some unknown online supplier, can't even remember their name right now. |
10c likes them. I have used them and the BP6et spark plugs have no signs of detonation..zero..nada..zip.
Projected tip spark plugs (the P in NGK BP6et) can be very helpful if there is room in the combustion chamber and no interference with the valves. The flame kernel is moved out into the combustion chamber by a few millimeters. It allows a more complete burning of the mixture. It can be like advancing the timing..but in the case of our WBX engines..it just allows fuel mixture to be burned more efficiently..not the same thing that happens if you jack the timing up a few degrees..advancing the timing does not make the fuel burn "better".
I've been reading spark plugs for many years and know the signs of detonation..my 2.1 WBX has none. See the picture of the BP6et removed at 15k miles...no black pepper..no burned electrodes and the center electrode is not overheated.
These spark plugs are fine. If the WBX engine was tuned to the ragged edge of performance, the theories and engineering concerns would be an issue. You would see signs of detonation. There just is not any.
Gordon Jennings (master engine tuner..RIP) wrote about projected tip spark plugs as a tuning tip in 1977. He liked them too.
http://www.strappe.com/plugs.html |
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4539
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:09 am Post subject: |
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we use NGK projected tip plugs in ALL the VWs that come to our shop,
and have done so since Bosch plugs went to sh*t.
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport |
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AtlasShrugged
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| borninabus wrote: |
we use NGK projected tip plugs in ALL the VWs that come to our shop,
and have done so since Bosch plugs went to sh*t. |
Yepp..they do just fine |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:46 am Post subject: |
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I got a set of these with a new parts lot I bought out.
They are in my Syncro Westy's waterboxer now.
Smooth power...not much different from the ones they replaced, but are smooth for sure. |
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