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Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain
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Warren
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Okay so sadly last week pulling out of San Diego up to the Lagunas I had a crank bearing go.

I was doing 50-55 in 3rd gear 90+ degrees out and she wasn't pinging but typically if I can't hold a solid 55 in 4th this has been my strategy to keep from lugging him and heating up.

Firstly - Is this a good strategy?

Secondly - I'm sticking with a stock 1600cc SP long block/Pict 30-1 other than my electronic ignition (in the stock 205k vacuum dizzy) but wondering if I should consider doing/adding anything else to help with the heat and hilly terrain?

Definitely going to reverify all my tin and thermostat/flaps are functional.

Wondering about a solution to monitor oil temp as well? Or is it overkill?

Thanks in advance for the advice!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Warren - I don't think that you did much/anything wrong.

Note that a 1967 has a solid engine lid, so if you have 1600cc or more, consider vented lid, lid standoffs, the tennis ball trick. And maybe a doghouse shroud/cooler if you don't have one already. Most 1967-1969 1500cc engines have been rebuilt as 1600cc as 1500cc pistons/cylinders are no longer available.

I'm in Arizona, used to do that climb in my 1970 but that had shroud-mounted oil cooler, lid standoffs, and an 1835cc engine with dealer-added AC. I was able to stay in 4th gear the whole way, at least 70 mph, but remember that I switched off the AC for the long climbs.

I'd say you were pumping plenty of oil in your 3rd gear.
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Warren
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Warren - I don't think that you did much/anything wrong.

Note that a 1967 has a solid engine lid, so if you have 1600cc or more, consider vented lid, lid standoffs, the tennis ball trick. And maybe a doghouse shroud/cooler if you don't have one already. Most 1967-1969 1500cc engines have been rebuilt as 1600cc as 1500cc pistons/cylinders are no longer available.

I'm in Arizona, used to do that climb in my 1970 but that had shroud-mounted oil cooler, lid standoffs, and an 1835cc engine with dealer-added AC. I was able to stay in 4th gear the whole way, at least 70 mph, but remember that I switched off the AC for the long climbs.

I'd say you were pumping plenty of oil in your 3rd gear.


Ah yes I do have the old tennis ball there as well - I am hoping he was just tired as I have no idea how many miles are on the engine and I've been doing the 3000 mile valve adjust/oil etc. religiously.

Oil wise I was using Castrol GTX 20/50 but the folks doing my long block recommend straight 40wt all year round here so I'll do that for the warranty and see how it goes - If I can find some - LOL
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

In Phoenix, I used straight 40 Valvoline for at least 35 years, year round. I think stores like NAPA and CarQuest still stock straight 40. I used Valvoline because the shop I worked at in 1971 used Valvoline.

Note that the multi-viscosity oils are much better than in the old days, so many have had success with those these days.

I doubt that the oil type, brand, etc. had anything to do with your failure. Most likely it was just time, everything wears out eventually.

By the way: did you lose a main bearing or a connecting rod bearing???
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
By the way: did you lose a main bearing or a connecting rod bearing???


It was the main rod bearing on #4.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Consider upgrading to a type IV oil cooler. You have the engine out you just need to widen the doghouse shroud about an inch and modify the chute to match and you get improved cooling, stock VW parts and no one can see it so looks 100% original. Learned this trick from the Arizona Bus Club guys when I lived in Yuma.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

pondoras box wrote:
Consider upgrading to a type IV oil cooler. You have the engine out you just need to widen the doghouse shroud about an inch and modify the chute to match and you get improved cooling, stock VW parts and no one can see it so looks 100% original. Learned this trick from the Arizona Bus Club guys when I lived in Yuma.


Is that the same as the doghouse cooler?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Yes essentially its just a bit wider than a type 1. Basically it has more rows for the oil to pass through meaning a larger surface area to dissipate the heat from the oil. You don't have to drill and tap the case like with full flowing and engine to do a remote cooler.

The type IV cooler will bolt right up to the type one case where your doghouse cooler went. The sheet metal on the back of the cooling shroud needs to be modified. Someone offered a kit to do this at one time, I don't know if its still available.

Always use a new oil cooler when you replace one as the old coolers are virtually impossible to clean out and all the old stuff that was in there will now be in your new engine.

Edit found one, I don't know if this is the only supplier but its a good one.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1825501
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Warren wrote:
Okay so sadly last week pulling out of San Diego up to the Lagunas I had a crank bearing go.

I was doing 50-55 in 3rd gear 90+ degrees out and she wasn't pinging but typically if I can't hold a solid 55 in 4th this has been my strategy to keep from lugging him and heating up.

Firstly - Is this a good strategy?

Secondly - I'm sticking with a stock 1600cc SP long block/Pict 30-1 other than my electronic ignition (in the stock 205k vacuum dizzy) but wondering if I should consider doing/adding anything else to help with the heat and hilly terrain?

Definitely going to reverify all my tin and thermostat/flaps are functional.

Wondering about a solution to monitor oil temp as well? Or is it overkill?

Thanks in advance for the advice!


I'm not sure about revving it that far in 3rd. I looked in the later (1970) owner's manual here on the site and really couldn't confirm it, but I know on the earlier cars the speedometer has the red roman numerals to indicate the top speed in each gear, and for 3rd the top speed is 45 mph.

Again, maybe not an issue on the later engines but I thought I'd mention it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

fl59bug wrote:
Warren wrote:
Okay so sadly last week pulling out of San Diego up to the Lagunas I had a crank bearing go.

I was doing 50-55 in 3rd gear 90+ degrees out and she wasn't pinging but typically if I can't hold a solid 55 in 4th this has been my strategy to keep from lugging him and heating up.

Firstly - Is this a good strategy?

Secondly - I'm sticking with a stock 1600cc SP long block/Pict 30-1 other than my electronic ignition (in the stock 205k vacuum dizzy) but wondering if I should consider doing/adding anything else to help with the heat and hilly terrain?

Definitely going to reverify all my tin and thermostat/flaps are functional.

Wondering about a solution to monitor oil temp as well? Or is it overkill?

Thanks in advance for the advice!


I'm not sure about revving it that far in 3rd. I looked in the later (1970) owner's manual here on the site and really couldn't confirm it, but I know on the earlier cars the speedometer has the red roman numerals to indicate the top speed in each gear, and for 3rd the top speed is 45 mph.

Again, maybe not an issue on the later engines but I thought I'd mention it.


3rd gear is @ 46/47mph and from what I have read are not max rpm but recommended shift points and left over from the old 1200 days.

I read this years ago and think it's pretty good advice - I usually shift as I fall through 55 and run 50-55 in 3rd gear.

http://www.vw-resource.com/overheating.html#keep

Regarding cooling the engine while driving when hill climbing, if the speed drops below 50mph, shift down the third gear. This speeds up the fan for better cooling. If you need to, you can drive a Bug in 3rd gear up to 60mph - it sounds very noisy but the engine is running at a very safe 4500 rpm or so at that speed in 3rd gear. The extra fan speed will certainly lower both oil and cylinder head temperatures.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

pondoras box wrote:


Edit found one, I don't know if this is the only supplier but its a good one.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1825501


Thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

best advice ever want a good running motor build it as close to the way vw did
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
best advice ever want a good running motor build it as close to the way vw did


Yep! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Warren wrote:
fl59bug wrote:
Warren wrote:
Okay so sadly last week pulling out of San Diego up to the Lagunas I had a crank bearing go.

I was doing 50-55 in 3rd gear 90+ degrees out and she wasn't pinging but typically if I can't hold a solid 55 in 4th this has been my strategy to keep from lugging him and heating up.

Firstly - Is this a good strategy?

Secondly - I'm sticking with a stock 1600cc SP long block/Pict 30-1 other than my electronic ignition (in the stock 205k vacuum dizzy) but wondering if I should consider doing/adding anything else to help with the heat and hilly terrain?

Definitely going to reverify all my tin and thermostat/flaps are functional.

Wondering about a solution to monitor oil temp as well? Or is it overkill?

Thanks in advance for the advice!


I'm not sure about revving it that far in 3rd. I looked in the later (1970) owner's manual here on the site and really couldn't confirm it, but I know on the earlier cars the speedometer has the red roman numerals to indicate the top speed in each gear, and for 3rd the top speed is 45 mph.

Again, maybe not an issue on the later engines but I thought I'd mention it.


3rd gear is @ 46/47mph and from what I have read are not max rpm but recommended shift points and left over from the old 1200 days.

I read this years ago and think it's pretty good advice - I usually shift as I fall through 55 and run 50-55 in 3rd gear.

http://www.vw-resource.com/overheating.html#keep

Regarding cooling the engine while driving when hill climbing, if the speed drops below 50mph, shift down the third gear. This speeds up the fan for better cooling. If you need to, you can drive a Bug in 3rd gear up to 60mph - it sounds very noisy but the engine is running at a very safe 4500 rpm or so at that speed in 3rd gear. The extra fan speed will certainly lower both oil and cylinder head temperatures.


Good information Very Happy I've been unsure about this in my old '59 which now has a big bore 40 horse, and have been worried I'm doing it harm by letting the engine wind up too far. It easily wants to rev to mid-upper 40s in 3rd and now I won't stress as much about letting it do this.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Suggest at least getting oil pressure and temp gauges installed. We have found that running much over 3,000 RPM for a cruising speed and the ACVW engines just run too hot. Additionally running 3,800 RPM with stock crankshaft, the #2 bearing area gets beaten up due to the crank flex, which a counterweight crankshaft should solve that.

Problem with the theory of just higher fan RPM means more cooling, is that at same time one is burning that much more fuel and air, and without increasing of cooling surface areas.

Used to have to rebuild the engines for our buses at about 30,000 to 40,000 miles due to being worn out dogs of engines that could not do the same hill that previously could crest at 55 MPH, but after so many miles it was more like 45+ MPH. Got over 80,000 miles with the next big bore 40 HP engine by just dropping down to 3,000 RPM for cruising along. Engine was still running like new, but end play got too much so had to pull that engine out for rebuild. Also suddenly went from 19 MPG to 27 MPG.

Now have over 150,000 miles on out SP slip in P&Cs 1641cc engine with CW crank. Still runs like new in out 1960 walk thru panel camper conversion. Like to keep the oil temp below 220F, and that seems to be working for us. Getting around 23 MPG @ 60 MPH.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:

Problem with the theory of just higher fan RPM means more cooling, is that at same time one is burning that much more fuel and air, and without increasing of cooling surface areas.


RPM and heat is not a direct correlation I believe - My foot on the floor running in 4th gear at 55 MPH pulling a hill burns a heck of a lot more fuel and creates more heat than doing 55 in 3rd gear at 2/3 throttle with more cooling air.

You have to consider load.

I have definitely seen the later drop oil temps quickly many years ago (1980's) when I had a Berg dipstick thermometer in my '66 - It was the only way to cool it off other than stopping. Maybe I'll have to look into getting another.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

I agree about load. Running up a hill at 50-55 in thrid is way better than throwing it in 4th and lugging that sucker up. That puts way more stress on the engine than the higher rpms IMO.

Anyway, your spun the # 4 main? The little one? That's odd. Maybe the oil restrictor for that bearing got clogged up. Did you finish the tear down?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

the best in cooling is to install a dog house cooler system. this is a great upgrade. bigger fan, bigger oil cooler, plus the huge benefit of the hot air from the oil cooler is dumped oit of the engine bay, rather than recirculated back over cylinders and head as the non dog house system does. avoid aftermarket fan shrouds, many lack the correct internal vanes.

the dog house will cool the motor very well.

However my grand dad drove his 65 Bug, all stock except for dealer installed AC, all over Arizona, without cooling issues.

an oil pressure gage would be my first choice for the most important gage. it can detect low pressure, and give an idea of oil temperature by noting at a given rpm the pressure, as pressure will drop as oil gets hot and thins.

a temp gage is nice too for oil sump, and icing on the cake is a head temperature gage. but as minumum get at least a pressure gage if you want gages.

so make sure your stock cooling system is ok, all parts installed, all factory parts, no leaks, no crud blocking the fan or head and cylinder fins, etc....

upgrade to a dog house system, specially if you go for a bigger motor


Note as other posted, you can use a type IV oil cooler, but that is only applicable if you run a dog house system, but with a properly set up dog house system for a stock sized motor, the larger cooler is not needed.

3rd gear at your speeds is pretty fast, despite higher fan speed, oil may still get too hot. Id not push it that hard, time to slow down u til it is fjxed.

Good Luck, Bug On!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Update - Seems my thermostat stuck which caused the cooking - Tested fine 2500 miles ago - I will never have one of those on an aircooled VW again... Mad
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on new long block - Hot Weather - Hilly terrain Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
I agree about load. Running up a hill at 50-55 in thrid is way better than throwing it in 4th and lugging that sucker up. That puts way more stress on the engine than the higher rpms IMO.

Anyway, your spun the # 4 main? The little one? That's odd. Maybe the oil restrictor for that bearing got clogged up. Did you finish the tear down?


#4 connecting rod bearing.
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