Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Replacing bearings and bushings....for nothing!
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:22 pm    Post subject: Replacing bearings and bushings....for nothing! Reply with quote

Three years ago, my Beetle didn't pass the MOT because of the rusty front torsion beam. Because I didn't have a place to fix it myself, I had it replaced by a Beetle specialist.

A while ago I noticed that the bearing/trailing arms had some excessive play and since I was about to restore a front beam of my other project (both ball joint), I ordered all the bushings, bearings and seals at cip1.com

First I tested the play on the trailing arms from my project car and some had a little play and some didn't. But because I wanted everything new, I took off the trailing arms, placed a new bushing over it and...it allready had some play (!).

When I measured the inner diameter of that bushing, it was 37.5 mm. The diameter of the trailing arm was 37.0 mm. Maybe it was worn out? I measured the other 3 arms and all of them were 37.0 mm. Then I pulled out all the bushings (and bearings) of the front beam.

When I placed one of the old bushings over the trailing arm, I noticed that it had no play at all and when I measured that one, it had an inner diameter of 37.0 mm. Strange, I thought; the new bushings allready have some play. These bushings are also sold here in Sweden and in Holland by the way.

Yesterday I replaced all the bushings (the ones I took out were only three years old and were exactly the same as the new ones I bought) of my 1974 torsion bar Beetle and thought that the excessive play problem might solve itself when I mount the new ones, because of the dimple that sits in the front beam where the bushings are located and maybe those dimples press the bushing in a litlle so that the play will diappear.


After half a day work everything was mounted in place again, I mounted the wheels back and....the play is still there. All that work for nothing!
It's obvious that those bushings are crap.
Now I'm wondering if the urethane bushings have the same problem. I chose to go for the originals, because of all the stories I've heard about urethane, especially that they squeak som much, and I really don't want that.

Does anybody has an idea what to do now? My car needs new MOT soon and I want to fix it before that.


A slide hammer that I recently bought. The large washer (I've cut the sides of it) hooks behind the bearing, so that I can "hammer" it out.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



A threadded stud with a modified nut (that fits right through the place where the torsion bars are fixed in the beam) and a similar washer again.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The new bushing is getting into place (the top one goes 13 cm into the beam and the lower one 14 cm).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



And the bearing.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



If you want to place the torsion leafs back, it's easier if you grind the sharp edges first.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The crappy bushing.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both CIP1 och PARUZZI (Holland) claim on their webbsite that these bushings are for ball joint beams:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



But at Classic VW Up North's (Swedish) webbsite it says that the bushings for ball jointss are made of metal, so does Hoffmann Speedster (Germany). Could it be that CIP1 and PARUZZI are wrong and I need the metal ones?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Tonight I will pull out the bushing of my project car that doesn't have any play and take a picture of those one. I can remember that they were metal, or at least had a metal sleeve on the outside. Probably those ones are original.....
_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a picture of the old bushing that I pulled out and that had no play. Could this be the original? Where can I order these?

Dimensions: 45,0 x 37,0 x 23,0 mm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
towd
Samba Member


Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 2458

towd is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I know that type beam in the states was only aftermarket Brazilian replacements.

The VW beams had a steel needle bearing,,, upper and lower are different sizes.. This I know up to 73 for sure..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

towd wrote:
From what I know that type beam in the states was only aftermarket Brazilian replacements.

The VW beams had a steel needle bearing,,, upper and lower are different sizes.. This I know up to 73 for sure..


The bushing that is shown on the picture is the inner bushing. On the outside there is a needle bearing indeed.
_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Misul from Transilvania
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Romania, Ploiesti
Misul  from Transilvania is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject: beam Reply with quote

Hello!
I've bought a 60000km front beam from a '70 karmann ghia.The arms are in perfect shape, from my original car.It has a little play without the spring plates...is it normal?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
partonkevin
Samba Member


Joined: June 10, 2003
Posts: 478
Location: McMinnville, TN
partonkevin is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good info on this. I can't help you, but I enjoyed the tutorial.
Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Misul from Transilvania
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Romania, Ploiesti
Misul  from Transilvania is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@rainierdeklark do you have something new on this subject? did you resolve the problem? i don"t now what to do with that play...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I did solve the problem, but it's still a mystery to me how others do it.
I got the bushings from a Swedish VW supplier, but those were just the inner metal bushings.
So, I sanded out a few milimeters from the inside of the micarta bushings, pressed the metal bushings into the micarta's (don't hammer the bushings, the micarta's will break. Be carefull!) and pressed the whole thing into the beam (be carefull again).
I really wonder how others do that, that chose not to go for urethane.... Question


Micarta bushing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Sand a few milimeters from the inside:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Press the metal bushing into the micarta bushing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Orginal VS home made:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Press the whole thing into the beam:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
johnnypan
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 7432
Location: sackamenna
johnnypan is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By cutting the micarta bushing with the drill motor odds are your bore is distorted,now the bronze split bushing bushing might be tight in the micarta but if its not supported equally by the micarta it will fail.Bronze split bushings require support by the full bore its being pressed into to survive.You mention in your initial post a small amount of play with the micarta alone...is this play evident when fully assembled and lubed?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnypan wrote:
By cutting the micarta bushing with the drill motor odds are your bore is distorted,now the bronze split bushing bushing might be tight in the micarta but if its not supported equally by the micarta it will fail.


Maybe, but what can you do when you don't have access to a lathe and the right bushings are not available? Time will tell if it holds...


Quote:
You mention in your initial post a small amount of play with the micarta alone...is this play evident when fully assembled and lubed?


Yes, absolutely, and quite a lot as well, just at the border of what the MOT allows. And the trailing arms are not the problem; I have mounted 4 other trailing arms on all 4 locations in the beam and the results are the same.

My question is: Why are micarta bushings for sale that have a too large inner diameter to mount without the metall inserts while having a too small inner diameter to mount with the metal inserts?
Secondly, why do they sell the metall inserts seperately and not as a whole with the micarta's?
_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Misul from Transilvania
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Romania, Ploiesti
Misul  from Transilvania is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dissasembled my front beam and found two original bushings(on one of them the sleeve is loose) and two are manufactured in Romania from "duramid" that i think it has the same qualityes as urethane...
I will make the bushings from duramid and insert the metal sleeve...
Is it neccesary to replace the bearings?they have no play....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
rainierdeklark
Samba Member


Joined: December 04, 2007
Posts: 624
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
rainierdeklark is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You only have to replace the bearings if they show a great deal of wear, like discoloring or pitting. Mostly they're fine. I replaced them because I ordered them before I took them out. So I already had new ones....
_________________
Modern cars are nothing but visual pollution !
www.klarkclassiccars.se
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
schunacher
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2010
Posts: 212
Location: Silicon Valley
schunacher is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been trying to figure out how to do this on a link pin beam so when I came across this thread I remembered some info you guys probably did not see since you are ball joint guys. The title says the bushings need reaming so its logical that the BJ ones did too (rainierdeklark used a drum sander, posted above). I don't think reamers are very expensive but I need to find a reamer before I try this (anyone know where to buy good reamers?).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And just for reinforcement WW says the same thing:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And it seems that CIP has the metal inner bushing sleeves for ball joint but doesn't really know exactly what they are for or how to install them (click on the image and it will get bigger to read the fine print):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DET
Samba Member


Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
DET is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Thank you for the pictures of the homemade tools ... Reply with quote

I recently purchased a new beam for my 1973 bug. The paint is crap and I wanted to get the thing powder coated before installing it, as I am redoing the whole car. I was trying to figure out how to remove all the bearings and bushings before taking it to the powder coater. I made a tool like yours (the treaded rod) and added a receiver tube from a ball joint remover tool so that the bearings could travel all the way out of the torsion. It worked better than anticipated. Thank you!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
W1K1
Samba Member


Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 3673
Location: Southern AB
W1K1 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You only have to replace the bearings if they show a great deal of wear, like discoloring or pitting. Mostly they're fine. I replaced them because I ordered them before I took them out. So I already had new ones....

if you pulled the beaings out by pulling on the back side of the bearing then replace them.
The bearing is designed to be pressed in with the hard side(numbers on it) the other side is soft and will distort if you put pressure on it..
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
JasonBaker
Samba Member


Joined: February 08, 2010
Posts: 1640
Location: Cleveland, TN
JasonBaker is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a super guy, don't care to know much about the front beam anyway. But I saw a guy put the Idler arm bushing in the freezer and heat up the assembly to get it to work
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
fmartin_gila
Samba Member


Joined: January 25, 2008
Posts: 397
Location: Globe, Az.
fmartin_gila is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the latest Harbor Freight Tool Catalog, they have a set of adjustable reamers that are not too expensive. Don't know if the range would cover this application, but might be worth checking out.

Fred
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
schunacher
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2010
Posts: 212
Location: Silicon Valley
schunacher is offline 

PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
if you pulled the beaings out by pulling on the back side of the bearing then replace them.

How else would you get the bearing out?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ilustr8tor
Samba Member


Joined: November 07, 2010
Posts: 409
Location: Maryland
ilustr8tor is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: GREAT FREE TOOL Reply with quote

Go to Advanced auto parts and get the tool in the photo, they offer free toll rental, you pay 189.00 for it but get all your money back when you return the tool complete and clean:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
I love this analog addition to my over digitzed life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB