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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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 Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rod bolt faliure autopsy photos |
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I will politely agree to disagree. That big end of the connecting rod is cooked from lack of oil on that particular journal. I described above how that can happen and all the other journals appear fine. In fact as the bearing fails, it will plug the oil galley with bearing material and maintain the pressure to the rest of the engine. The above is typical of a spun rod bearing to the point that the rod failed and ejected the fastener as the rod failed spectacularly.
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jimf909 
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7466
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rod bolt faliure autopsy photos |
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| Captain Pike wrote: |
| Beware an external cause has been identified. Embryos in the off market oil filters. Xenomorph. |
Woah! Nearly 15 years after the first post. Now that's stick-to-it-tiveness.
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| Abscate wrote: |
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3341
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rod bolt faliure autopsy photos |
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Engine was not oil starved. Bad bolt fail. Rebuilt but REUSED rods. However his was found under the rear bench seat
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17124
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:39 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 rod bolt faliure autopsy photos |
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| Captain Pike wrote: |
| Beware an external cause has been identified. Embryos in the off market oil filters. Xenomorph. |
Ah, a thread resurection. This is actually why I don't buy into the TTY bolts just failing on their own.
Granted there is broken rod bolt, but that rod big end was overheating long before that fastener failed. Aside from lack of lubrication, detonation can cause rod bearings to deform on themselves squeegying the oil away from the journal to the point where the bearing spins and rod end overheats. Finally letting go. A cylinder using oil can actually increase the BTU and lead to detonation.
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3341
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 rod bolt faliure autopsy photos |
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Beware an external cause has been identified. Embryos in the off market oil filters. Xenomorph.
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.....................All Current....................... |
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chazz79
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2008
Posts: 2268
Location: ohio
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hello my name is Chazz79 and I'm a recovering wbx diy'er
It's been 9 months since I last undertook cracking open one of these evil works of the devil..... And....lord be with me I may never do it again.
All aa references aside. I lunched a self build in the same fashion using cip1 empi bolts. I did torque to spec, yet still spat the #4 through the top of the case. My rod bolt looked the same ( kinds like a dandy-lion "mamma had a baby and its head popped off"). The only thing I could save was the amc heads and external bolt ons. I got @3000 miles out of that engine. Sweetest damn wbx'er I have ever had the pleasure of driving. Oil pressure and temp was great, I was cruising 70 mph on the highway tick-boom was all the warning I got. Ran like a top for six months up to that point.
So my added advice-don't cheap out! Arp fasteners only! This is too vital an area to save money on.
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Pike wrote: |
Update : engine was rebuilt 30k ago. PO stated he had drained the oil so thats why there was no oil in the case.
I'm going to build a 2.4 replacement  oh my___I'm going wasser   |
well no oil would certainly cause problems. duh!!! I know of some one that had a big oil leak and seized a motor. No oil, no go. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Yep, your engine would have probably died a violent death within 30-60K miles, now it may be good for 200K more. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:20 am Post subject: |
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This thread illustrates why my engine is currently torn apart!
I was recently talking with a member who knows the WBX engines very well. I told him I had pulled the rods, he asked "why? Almost no one does that". I'm not sure his statement is true but.........
Well I've got two reasons..........
One: to gauge the health of the lower end based upon rod bearing wear......
And
Two: to get those 2.1 rods with the torque/angle stretch bolts that are proven weak points OUT OF THE ENGINE.
I'm ordering a set of Rods and bearings from Van Cafe. My original rod bearings with 116,000 original miles show minimal wear.
I'm not cracking the case and I'm tossing the dice that all is well down below. A gamble I'm willing to take on this one. I know the PO who purchased it as the 2nd owner in 1990, I know he maintained the car....... No worries!
The rod bearings are in such good shape I'm almost tempted to run them again! But....... For $16 ........ I won't.
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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kbatson
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2009
Posts: 42
Location: ozarks
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: the hole |
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| mine just went aug 1st. running wonderfully and bang... |
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240Gordy
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Joined: May 15, 2008
Posts: 2354
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:30 am Post subject: |
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love this kind of info.
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kbatson
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2009
Posts: 42
Location: ozarks
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: Block |
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| Hey i have one! But it looks a hell of allot like that one! |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:33 am Post subject: |
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By the way, the copper showing on the cam thrust bearing is normal. VW used a new bearing set with no tin plating on the thrust because it was flaking off on the older style. They look like that new in the box.
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3341
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Update : engine was rebuilt 30k ago. PO stated he had drained the oil so thats why there was no oil in the case.
I'm going to build a 2.4 replacement oh my___I'm going wasser
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.....................All Current....................... |
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OilNBolts
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2007
Posts: 438
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is Sticky worthy. Moderator?
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3341
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
I always thought the "blue coolant" story was a red herring. The factory put the wrong coolant in my silver 87 then, cause the heads were both shot at 25k miles. Way before anybody replaced the coolant.
I can see from 1200 miles away that those are NOT the shit valves that come with the AMC heads. They have sodium filled stems. See the divot?
They might have come with the car new, but there is nothing wrong with using them over if the stem wear is okay.
I do not see a rod bolt failure in your pictures. Not to say the unshown one did not fail. Not enough info to say. If the crank journal shows signs of overheating, it was likely oil starvation, not a bolt failure. If the rod nut is OFF the bolt, that is pretty telling.
SillyCone is blessing and scourge.
Certainly not a pretty engine. I have one just like it.
I can't help but think that thing must have made enough bad noise to hear over the radio.
Wouldn't most people stop? Perhaps they thought it would heal up if they kept driving?
Al |
Check Gowesty's write up of the exhaust valve. Shows the same dimple but with a melted side.
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.....................All Current....................... |
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3341
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Block split
what a mess. Note the cam thrust bearing is wiped to the copper yet the rest are OK.
The other side
Cam shaft shattered. No purple color on the crank. It seems oil starvation was not the cause of death.
Bearings look OK
See where this is going?
Sorted thru the chunks and found the rod bolt
Clean snap at the base of the nut. Threads still line up.
Engine was rebuilt with standard bearings and USED cam,crank and non reconditioned rods.
Bolt streached____rod failed___engine go boom.
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59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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Clark_88Westy
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2008
Posts: 12
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Bill, I have a short block you can have. High miles, but no damage.
I'm in Milford, NJ. Send me an email,
clark (at) clarksplace.com |
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Captain Pike
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 3341
Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: |
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I still need to crack the block but the rod bearings were NOT wiped out. Still need to find the rest of the rod to see if the bolt failed.
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59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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I always thought the "blue coolant" story was a red herring. The factory put the wrong coolant in my silver 87 then, cause the heads were both shot at 25k miles. Way before anybody replaced the coolant.
I can see from 1200 miles away that those are NOT the shit valves that come with the AMC heads. They have sodium filled stems. See the divot?
They might have come with the car new, but there is nothing wrong with using them over if the stem wear is okay.
I do not see a rod bolt failure in your pictures. Not to say the unshown one did not fail. Not enough info to say. If the crank journal shows signs of overheating, it was likely oil starvation, not a bolt failure. If the rod nut is OFF the bolt, that is pretty telling.
SillyCone is blessing and scourge.
Certainly not a pretty engine. I have one just like it.
I can't help but think that thing must have made enough bad noise to hear over the radio.
Wouldn't most people stop? Perhaps they thought it would heal up if they kept driving?
Al
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Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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