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Brezelwerks
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Joined: March 17, 2003
Posts: 1421
Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| mrsherbie wrote: |
You are joking right Gary? 
I dont think you guys in the US are as swamped with this problem as we are here in Europe.
We dont drive 1000miles across Europe to a show in a very old car just to park with some guy in a ratrod. We can do that at home every weekend!! Camberg is sadly over because of that for many people. Its a vintage vw show, not a bloody communal love hippyfest!
Maybe you would feel differently if you had driven a car to last Camberg and witnessed some of what went on.
For the first time I disagree with you!  
BUT playing devils advocate, I also think it is too harsh to say no to all the buses, modified or not, for example the barndoor og paint boys are probably as hard core serious vw as anyone gets! And no doubt ALL barndoor buses should all be there, modified or not! But they get thrown in to this mix unfairly. Its the same old problem, a few of the wrong type of people who just happen to drive modified and or ratty vw's?
So how do you deter the wrong type? You have no choice but to generalise and exclude.
Or is Photo application the only way to stop people like the SBS guys?
As I pointed out on ssvc, stock people dont make trouble at shows!
Against my better judgement I am posting this pic to remind you what us Brits are capable of on the Camberg show field, yes, during the show weekend....still the same viewpoint now Gary?
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Wow, a picture tells a thousand words, of course the first word that came to me was "Woodstock", but I only saw that in pictures as well since I was merely a snapper back then.
I knew in advance that perspective would enrich the conversation, I did that for a reason, and yes you do have to read between the lines there somewhat, and I stress somewhat since there aren't alot of easy answers here, but there are better and more effective ways at addressing the clear issue and problem that exists.
That said I've been well aware and vocal about this creep effect that has been gaining access into these longstanding traditional events for some time. Its actually why I cancelled Camberg and am no longer interested whatsover in attending, as I was more than disappointed when Bob V decided upon himself that Camberg was the most appropriate venue for him to debut the controversial Teufelheb. Whether it was for his fun or not I tend to believe that Willy Lotterman would not have appreciated its attendance. Fundamentally for me that one arrogant move in my opinion set in motion a very troubling ripple effect and precedent within the hobby, as I mentioned it would happen, and here we are.
Sure one could go off on an entire social commentary on the much larger issue, its a major issue in society today and not just at VW events. There is an unsettling sense of disrespectful entitlement that a large majority of particularly younger folks seem to have, especially when there is an event or hierarchy involved where there is perceived privilege, or exclusionary rules, or the feeling of elitism. Nothing fuels the fire for opposition and rule breaking more than those factors, particularly out of those that choose a hobby more as a complete lifestyle rather than just a hobby as most of us do it as.
First and foremost the VW rat/rod genre needs to first understand that events like Camberg and HO are not per se' lifestyle events, they are an occasionally held historical tribute event honoring the cars, not per se our personalities or nearly full time lifestyle choices, regardless of how much the cars and their variants seem to have in common. Its not a difficult concept to understand or respect. Times have changed in reality, so its really up to show management, and perhaps the commentary of the various publications to get that message out nomatter what feature articles they happen to be running to help sell magazines or web advertising.
Next, you and I have really a choice in how we might respond to this issue. While its a passionate issue, the only way its going to get addressed is with a steady approach rather than trying to resolve it on a lower level based on argument and potentially more troubling escalation, which might only build a permanent wall between enthusiasts, that whether we want to openly admit it or not, stand a good chance of becoming future stock enthusiasts in perhaps just the next decade, just like the Woodstock attendees that soon enough became all kinds of respectful citizens.
That said, for now its the show management and its promoters that have to take more into consideration than ever in addressing the issue and the problem, to recognize that there is more at stake in the hobby in general.
I tend to believe therefore that the path back to restoring the original intent of these traditional events is to first re-establish the groundrules for everyone, which means leaving on the table an opportunity for even the rat/rod guys to participate one last time in courtesy, held under strict groundrules, an opportunity to perhaps acquire the attention they are looking for, to validate themselves in some way perhaps, a stepping stone maybe, but as a one time opportunity, and with well defined vehicle pre-requisites to qualify for attendance.
Certainly I could be somewhat of an idealist here, but in the past if you tighten up the rules and back them up with repercussions, all folks and personalities have their own chance to step up or not and face being removed. Keep in mind though once the show precedent has been been broken as it already has at Camberg, the path back to its traditional roots is not easy, but you do that in two steps rather than one since the precedent was broken, to be fair within reason. So its now up to show management to reign in show qualifications and criteria for attendance, and back that up with extra security and police whom are prepared to follow through, no exceptions.
Do I actually believe the VW rat/rod community might rally and belly up as responsible attendees, and yes I do under strict entry rules, and there are many out there with big future aspirations worth attracting. None of us will know what will happen to the rat/rod genre, pehaps alot, perhaps nothing, but in the end we can all say that we tried to tolerate a certain part of it to see if it could grow its own wings, which would say alot about our hobby in general. Just my opinion based on my experiences so far. |
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johnshenry 
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9364
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: rats away |
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| mrsherbie wrote: |
| KAMAX wrote: |
even if it's true they mostly camed from GB.
they have already destroyed BadCamberg spirit... don't let them do the same with Hessich. 
the rules are simple. Vintage cars only. Why those idiots try to get in with their rats car and buses ? that kills the spirit of the show.
They are so many show all around they can go to. Why wanna come and display in Hesscih ?? Even if they are kept away from the show... they will wanna drive the rally also ?! that's going to be a mess !
Who is going to watch after the cars during the gala dinner ? if those drunck idiots are around.
Alex |
You are 100% right with everything your say here. And sadly many British people attending car shows in Germany are now embarassed and ashamed to be 'Brits' after Camberg 
I tried to point this message out on the UK Splitscreen Van Club, and look what I got
http://www.ssvc.org.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=43156&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30
So the very same SBS members who posted attacking my comment on SSVC are from this UK club the 'Steering Box Scrapers' as you see from their own forum they have deliberately ignored the 'no ratlook' rule after it was discussed above, and registered their buses on the H.O. register no's 403, 442, 462, 465, 468, 470.
So it looks like they are coming anyway?
http://www.steeringboxscrapers.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3481&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
They obviously dont want to participate in the 'vintage spirit' do they? So why exactly do they want to go?
Tell me because I dont understand why? |
Easy problem to solve. Put a 6" high concrete speed bump at the gate. Any VW that can't make it over without help doesn't get in...
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Kais Collection
vintage treasures
Joined: February 18, 2005
Posts: 1570
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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I am number 292 on the list and I will attend the show with my '58 lowlight. It's not shiny but has patina because it's not restored. It has a vintage og steering wheel, vintage og shifter, vintage og radio, 90% original interior, and by then it will have vintage og rims and a vintage speed tuned matching numbers engine, all original. Oh, and by the way, it's lowered. Because I like the look. I drive it really careful so it won't get damaged.
People who know me know I have a true heart for the VW hobby, and also for the vintage/ stock part of it. I love to look at stock cars, restored cars, original cars, rare cars. and lowered nice cars.
I will let the wise men inhere decide if they think my car belongs at the show or not.
No matter what I will be at Bad Camberg just like 4 years ago, and I will have the best time of my life again with VW enthusiasts from all over the world. See you all there!
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9364
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Gary about separating the "culture" aspect out of this. Low riding parts car driving Brits aren't the only scum on the earth. Bottom feeders are universal, in all car club types, countries, etc.
But the idea of "fostering" a collaborative "show" and inviting both is both delusional and recipe for disaster IMO. Such an event disrespects the interest and cars of either group, and I see no commonality, vehicular or otherwise. I completely agree with Ms Herbie and Alex. Either establish a vintage show, and enforce it, or have a free for all (and bill it that way).
Photo entry and big old speed bump at the gate would be my approach....
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53 0val
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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"Which way to the Camberg speed bumps?"
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Splitdog
Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 4125
Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Richard Simmons with his baja.
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Splitdog
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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An artists' palette has many colored paints. As long as they are kept pure, any color can be obtained. Once you mix all the colors together, no purity can ever be achieved again. So, it's fine to mix some paints off to the side, but always keep perspective of the purity of the original colors.
There are hot-rod shows, mixed shows, and pure vintage shows. What's wrong with that?
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
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Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| 53 0val wrote: |
"Which way to the Camberg speed bumps?"
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Ok, speed bump and a 66" width on the gate....... 
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tazm
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Joined: June 10, 2001
Posts: 530
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with splitdog !
And Gary I would like to see your face if one of those guy's was trowing up on your wifes shoes ! ( That happend to my wife last time in Bad Camberg) , apologizes no way ! The problems started already At BBT Belgium, total drunk, trowing with the free food , even animals are not living like that , They do not now the word respect !They are the lowest from the lowest and don't should be on a Vintage like Hessisch Olderdorf or Bad Camberg !
Kai I'm not talking about you or your car, you know I like you and your Very nice LL !
Guido |
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53 0val
Samba Professor
Joined: July 03, 2003
Posts: 11396
Location: Irvine, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| tazm wrote: |
I agree with splitdog !
And Gary I would like to see your face if one of those guy's was trowing up on your wifes shoes ! ( That happend to my wife last time in Bad Camberg) , apologizes no way ! The problems started already At BBT Belgium, total drunk, trowing with the free food , even animals are not living like that , They do not now the word respect !They are the lowest from the lowest and don't should be on a Vintage like Hessisch Olderdorf or Bad Camberg !
Kai I'm not talking about you or your car, you know I like you and your Very nice LL !
Guido |
I can arrange an introduction for you.
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KAMAX
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 232
Location: Chartres - FRANCE
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| tazm wrote: |
The problems started already At BBT Belgium, total drunk, trowing with the free food , even animals are not living like that , They do not now the word respect !They are the lowest from the lowest and don't should be on a Vintage like Hessisch Olderdorf or Bad Camberg !
Guido |
that's sad... but completly true.
this are part of the raisons why, we may not go to BBT before Hessich this time.
Alex |
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Brezelwerks
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2003
Posts: 1421
Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kai wrote: |
I am number 292 on the list and I will attend the show with my '58 lowlight. It's not shiny but has patina because it's not restored. It has a vintage og steering wheel, vintage og shifter, vintage og radio, 90% original interior, and by then it will have vintage og rims and a vintage speed tuned matching numbers engine, all original. Oh, and by the way, it's lowered. Because I like the look. I drive it really careful so it won't get damaged.
People who know me know I have a true heart for the VW hobby, and also for the vintage/ stock part of it. I love to look at stock cars, restored cars, original cars, rare cars. and lowered nice cars.
I will let the wise men inhere decide if they think my car belongs at the show or not.
No matter what I will be at Bad Camberg just like 4 years ago, and I will have the best time of my life again with VW enthusiasts from all over the world. See you all there! |
No one would really call into question your passion Kai! Many others like yourself are equally passionate in the hobby, and even though some enjoy digressing from the stock standard, they also fully appreciate a stock vw, and attending these events just to be part of the experience.
The entry requirements for a vintage stock event are about a focus on the cars, not about an individual's preference or their particular lifestyle. For years the Camberg and HO events defined this particular appreciation, theme, and focus. Camberg was nearly as close to being a formal event as it gets in the VW world. For years most folks just understood this automatically as it was so obvious, and would arrive accordingly, and enjoy it as such.
Alot has obviously changed over the past decade, and there has just come a time when the obvious for some reason just needs to be spelled out for some, and as uncomfortable as that may sound for some to do, there comes a time when its more than appropriate to do so.
We'd like to think that folks would just get it and respect the treasured historical relevance behind these events, but unfortunately for some reason or another some folks like to push the boundaries. This is when and why rules become necessary as much as everyone doesn't like them or like enforcing them.
You are already registered Kai, plus pandora's box was already opened at Camberg that have already diverted from the stock standard at this event. This is why I'm suggesting one last capped semi-open invitation to non-fully stock vws, more for keeping the peace it seems at this point, lessening the paperwork mess, and not requiring folks to have to right their vehicles to stock at relatively shorter notice, its just the more appropriate exit strategy for rat/rods at these venues.
Therefore I'm suggesting that everyone has more than fair notice that these events are going to return to their original theme. Then it will give the rat/rod folks ample time to start considering planning their own festival/events now that their participation at the stock events are being phased out.
If the rat/rod culture and lifestyle has long term legs and folks want to remain associated with it for whatever reasons, it should be able to stand and survive and thrive on its own, it should not need to piggyback onto a vintage stock event to maintain its relevance. I also have to believe the rat/rod folks on one level or another already understand that to some degree their presence at vintage stock events is just a growing annoyance at best for the majority of the attendees/spectators, so its just time to call in appropriate and sensible long overdue action here.
My suggestion Kai, you already know better, so dress for HO and Camberg as its appropriate, raise your car to stock clearances, not because you "have to" in order to attend, but instead out of respect for the event and out of respect for the time and money spent by the organizers to ensure that everyone has a good time. When folks begin to understand its not all about them, perhaps then folks will begin to appreciate things a little differently. |
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Brezelwerks
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2003
Posts: 1421
Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| tazm wrote: |
I agree with splitdog !
And Gary I would like to see your face if one of those guy's was trowing up on your wifes shoes ! ( That happend to my wife last time in Bad Camberg) , apologizes no way ! The problems started already At BBT Belgium, total drunk, trowing with the free food , even animals are not living like that , They do not now the word respect !They are the lowest from the lowest and don't should be on a Vintage like Hessisch Olderdorf or Bad Camberg !
Kai I'm not talking about you or your car, you know I like you and your Very nice LL !
Guido |
Thats interesting info Guido. Why is it that following Camberg it seemed no one hardly mentioned here how out of hand the event has become?
The Teufelheb is one thing, but what you refer to above is another. Trust me if such a thing happened to my wife there there would be alot more action than just my facial expression asking for an apology.
From the Camberg thread that was posted up not long ago though, what I recall were all mostly positives, alot of pictures, folks whom enjoyed meeting each other etc, as usual activity for the most part.
I'm glad folks are speaking out here about the conditions at these events, its rather clear that the event needs some serious attention, things are clearly not like they once were unfortunately. I know that Camberg is a rather spread out event, and so its difficult to police all the activity there. It would seem then if there aren't reasonable and realistic ways to manage any event it should just be shut down, or reorganized and relocated elsewhere where it can be fully and safely managed.
If you can't ensure everone's general well being its just time to can it period. |
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belgianboxer
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2007
Posts: 280
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Brezelwerks wrote: |
| kai wrote: |
I am number 292 on the list and I will attend the show with my '58 lowlight. It's not shiny but has patina because it's not restored. It has a vintage og steering wheel, vintage og shifter, vintage og radio, 90% original interior, and by then it will have vintage og rims and a vintage speed tuned matching numbers engine, all original. Oh, and by the way, it's lowered. Because I like the look. I drive it really careful so it won't get damaged.
People who know me know I have a true heart for the VW hobby, and also for the vintage/ stock part of it. I love to look at stock cars, restored cars, original cars, rare cars. and lowered nice cars.
I will let the wise men inhere decide if they think my car belongs at the show or not.
No matter what I will be at Bad Camberg just like 4 years ago, and I will have the best time of my life again with VW enthusiasts from all over the world. See you all there! |
The entry requirements for a vintage stock event are about a focus on the cars, not about an individual's preference or their particular lifestyle. For years the Camberg and HO events defined this particular appreciation, theme, and focus. Camberg was nearly as close to being a formal event as it gets in the VW world. For years most folks just understood this automatically as it was so obvious, and would arrive accordingly, and enjoy it as such.
My suggestion Kai, you already know better, so dress for HO and Camberg as its appropriate, raise your car to stock clearances, not because you "have to" in order to attend, but instead out of respect for the event and out of respect for the time and money spent by the organizers to ensure that everyone has a good time. When folks begin to understand its not all about them, perhaps then folks will begin to appreciate things a little differently. |
Excellent idea, it will be appreciated by many and (who knows) you might inspire other lowriders who have already "accidentally" registered for HO to do the same...!? Someone has to give the good example 
BTW, you car will look much nicer on stock height:
before:
after:
====
regards,
Paul |
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ZwitterND
Samba Member
Joined: September 08, 2005
Posts: 1451
Location: Fargo, ND
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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[/quote]
Sorry but I have to interject some brevity, this picture is just too funny, the more I look at it the more I wet my pants! I am thinking of submitting it to the VVWCoA calendar contest. Think of the caption potential "You might be a redneck if...." or "Jerry Jerry Jerry!". Only thing missing in this picture are the cinder blocks in place of the tires.One thing is clear, we may have one the revolution but the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree! I need to go change my Depends....
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9364
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ZwitterND wrote: |
Sorry but I have to interject some brevity, this picture is just too funny, the more I look at it the more I wet my pants! I am thinking of submitting it to the VVWCoA calendar contest. Think of the caption potential "You might be a redneck if...." or "Jerry Jerry Jerry!". Only thing missing in this picture are the cinder blocks in place of the tires.One thing is clear, we may have one the revolution but the apple hasn't fallen far from the tree! I need to go change my Depends.... |
Personally I don't see the "horror" in the pic. No vomit, the trash seems to be neatly in the bag. A couple people dozing on the green grass on blankets. Big deal (not saying their weren't any "issues" at the show however... but I didn't see any when I was there)
| ZwitterND wrote: |
| Sorry but I have to interject some brevity, |
Oh, now THERE'S a big surprise!!!!
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69823
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mrsherbie wrote: |
Against my better judgement I am posting this pic to remind you what us Brits are capable of on the Camberg show field, yes, during the show weekend....still the same viewpoint now Gary?
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I'm not sure what the issue is here?
Because their Bus is lowered?
Because they are taking a nap in the show area?
Because they are camping on the show grounds?
Because their trash is all nicely bagged up in a trash bag?
My understanding is that Bad Camberg does not allow post-Barndoor Buses so this Bus should not be on the show field. If they are impeding the flow of traffic or vehicles, that would be an issue as well.
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52HoffmanSplit
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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This can be applied to US shows also.... The Socal Vintage Treffen was the closest I have ever gotten to BC or HO... I thought it was truly an amazing show and very well run. I did wonder why over in the concrete parking lot there were a large amount of custom and lowered cars. I never bothered to go over there to look at them, I was too amazed at something like 17 Splits in the same place. However, I did wonder if these cars had showed up at the entrance gate and no one had the heart to tell them to park out in the parking lot.
I do think the Treffen handled it well.. they were NOT on the grass and they were away from the main area. That area looked like a ghost town, no one was bothering to look at them. Still, why let them in in the first place. We are so sorely lacking and deprived of truly concourse events in the VW world, the treffen was the closest I came to one... how about for 2009 we tell the modified cars to park in the lot.. 
I must say that my attitide is that BC should be run as if Herr Lotterman was still alive and in charge.. Let the lowered crew vomit all over the Volksworld show but make them park in the parking lot at BC and HO.
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Rich's 50
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 52HoffmanSplit wrote: |
This can be applied to US shows also.... The Socal Vintage Treffen was the closest I have ever gotten to BC or HO... I thought it was truly an amazing show and very well run. I did wonder why over in the concrete parking lot there were a large amount of custom and lowered cars. I never bothered to go over there to look at them, I was too amazed at something like 17 Splits in the same place. However, I did wonder if these cars had showed up at the entrance gate and no one had the heart to tell them to park out in the parking lot.
I do think the Treffen handled it well.. they were NOT on the grass and they were away from the main area. That area looked like a ghost town, no one was bothering to look at them. Still, why let them in in the first place. We are so sorely lacking and deprived of truly concourse events in the VW world, the treffen was the closest I came to one... how about for 2009 we tell the modified cars to park in the lot..
I must say that my attitide is that BC should be run as if Herr Lotterman was still alive and in charge.. Let the lowered crew vomit all over the Volksworld show but make them park in the parking lot at BC and HO. |
I some what agree with this I respect both world's and if a show is just for stock car's than respect it and leave your custom rides at home for another day. I love both stock and Folk's style and it will not stop me or my family from attented these types of shows. |
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Splitdog
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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It boils down to entitlement mentality. Everyone seems to have it now. It is thier 'right' to intrude where they may not be wanted. What about someone's 'right' to exclusivity?
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