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Diesel ECU fine tuning question.
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mreuter
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:14 pm    Post subject: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

I am new to diesel "fine" tuning and I use to do fuel mapping on my engines by using a wideband sensor (AEM) to get the correct air/fuel ratio for a given RPM.
I am now using an aftermarket ECU for my diesel engine and was going to apply the same method because my engine is running rich when cold.
I ask the ECU manufacture what wideband sensor they would recommend and to my surprise they wrote me that wideband sensors are not used on diesel engine because they are running lean to begin with.
If this is the case what method is been used to find the correct amount of diesel fuel to be injected into the combustion chamber?

Does anyone know how to do this?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mixture on a Diesel goes from very lean at idle to much richer at full throttle, it can never be too rich except at or near full throttle and then it should be smoking like crazy. Diesels need "excess" air to give a clean burn and not smoke and one of the main causes of insufficient air is a clogged air filter. A turbo is there to provide extra air, so problems with a turbo would also cause a diesel to smoke.

No you can not set your mixture with an exhaust analyzer, nor can the engine run too rich at cold idle. You can have problems with your injection timing, spray pattern, and compression that would cause a bad burn during warmup conditions.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

mreuter wrote:

I am now using an aftermarket ECU for my diesel engine...


What engine is this? In a Vanagon?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
The mixture on a Diesel goes from very lean at idle to much richer at full throttle, it can never be too rich except at or near full throttle and then it should be smoking like crazy. Diesels need "excess" air to give a clean burn and not smoke and one of the main causes of insufficient air is a clogged air filter. A turbo is there to provide extra air, so problems with a turbo would also cause a diesel to smoke.

No you can not set your mixture with an exhaust analyzer, nor can the engine run too rich at cold idle. You can have problems with your injection timing, spray pattern, and compression that would cause a bad burn during warmup conditions.


The "base map" was done by specialized component in the UK so my guess is that the timing and spray pattern would be correct. The difference is the KN filter I will check out tomorrow. Maybe it is some air restriction. How do you tune the diesel without any instrument like the wideband sensor?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
mreuter wrote:

I am now using an aftermarket ECU for my diesel engine...


What engine is this? In a Vanagon?


I am using the Subaru diesel (EURO5 version) EE20 with Specialized Component ECU

http://www.specialist-components.co.uk/engineering/diesel-engine-management/
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mreuter wrote:
The "base map" was done by specialized component in the UK so my guess is that the timing and spray pattern would be correct. The difference is the KN filter I will check out tomorrow. Maybe it is some air restriction. How do you tune the diesel without any instrument like the wideband sensor?


You don't alter the amount of fuel to tune a diesel. For all intents and purposes a diesel is at WOT at all times, and if you want to lessen the power you cut back on the fuel and if you want to increase the power you add more fuel and thus the A/F ratio varies greatly. I really don't have a clue as to what the A/F ratio is for a diesel, but as a guess I would say 30 or 40 to 1 at idle and maybe 16 to 1 at full throttle.

The air filter will have the most effect at full throttle (high fuel flow) conditions. Since at idle the diesel is running so extremely lean, air flow through even a moderately restricted air cleaner isn't going to be the problem
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What software are you using to tune the ECU? I would expect the software has a place to set warm up enrichment. You should be able to adjust that table to lessen the warm up enrichment . Or, you need to somehow tweak the input circuit from the coolant and ambient temp sensor to trick the ECU into thinking it is warmer than it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

You don't alter the amount of fuel to tune a diesel.
For all intents and purposes a diesel is at WOT at all times, and if you want to lessen the power you cut back on the fuel and if you want to increase the power you add more fuel and thus the A/F ratio varies greatly. I really don't have a clue as to what the A/F ratio is for a diesel, but as a guess I would say 30 or 40 to 1 at idle and maybe 16 to 1 at full throttle.


You brain farted the first sentence, you meant "air" I'm sure.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

mreuter wrote:
my engine is running rich when cold.


Black smoke?

Or gray smoke?



At idle you're somewhere around 100:1 A/F ratio, at "WOT" you'll be around 24:1...
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
Wildthings wrote:

You don't alter the amount of fuel to tune a diesel.
For all intents and purposes a diesel is at WOT at all times, and if you want to lessen the power you cut back on the fuel and if you want to increase the power you add more fuel and thus the A/F ratio varies greatly. I really don't have a clue as to what the A/F ratio is for a diesel, but as a guess I would say 30 or 40 to 1 at idle and maybe 16 to 1 at full throttle.


You brain farted the first sentence, you meant "air" I'm sure.


No I meant fuel. You don't alter the amount of fuel or air to "tune" a diesel engine. Lessen the amount of fuel injected and the engine slows down, add more fuel and it speeds up, all the while you are not restricting the air flow. If you raise the A/F ratio you get less power and if you lower it you get more power, adding more fuel is what you do when you press the accelerator pedal and removing fuel is what you do when you let up on the pedal.

A diesel engine with a fuel delivery problem can smoke even when the A/F ratio is very high; injection timing, fuel pressure, spray pattern, compression ratio, combustion chamber design, they all count.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How do you like this engine other than this issue?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:

No I meant fuel. You don't alter the amount of fuel or air to "tune" a diesel engine.


In the context of the thread I thought you were referring to "power output" when you said "tune".


Wildthings wrote:

Lessen the amount of fuel injected and the engine slows down, add more fuel and it speeds up, all the while you are not restricting the air flow.


This is not news to me Wink

Wildthings wrote:

A diesel engine with a fuel delivery problem can smoke even when the A/F ratio is very high; injection timing, fuel pressure, spray pattern, compression ratio, combustion chamber design, they all count.


Thats why I asked what color the smoke is as that tells us what the cause of the smoke is.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

mreuter wrote:
I am new to diesel "fine" tuning and I use to do fuel mapping on my engines by using a wideband sensor (AEM) to get the correct air/fuel ratio for a given RPM.
I am now using an aftermarket ECU for my diesel engine and was going to apply the same method because my engine is running rich when cold.


I assume from your post that the engine is smoking excessively when cold. This is not due to the A/F ratio being too high. It is not 'running rich' (too much fuel for the amount of air), rather, the fuel is not burning completely. At any partial-pedal or no-pedal situations where the engine is not yet developing boost there is many times the amount of air needed to completely burn the diesel that is being injected. As mentioned, in those situations, reducing fuel will just reduce the engine speed/output. If it is smoking excessively when cold and everything else is correct aside from the engine management tuning (e.g. no air infiltration into the fuel, correct glow plug cycling, etc...) then you would need to adjust the timing, not the amount of fuel injected (until the timing is correct and the excessive smoke is eliminated). Typical cold running requires more advanced timing of the injection event in order to avoid smoke as the diesel fuel requires more time to burn completely.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:


You don't alter the amount of fuel to tune a diesel. For all intents and purposes a diesel is at WOT at all times, and if you want to lessen the power you cut back on the fuel and if you want to increase the power you add more fuel and thus the A/F ratio varies greatly. I really don't have a clue as to what the A/F ratio is for a diesel, but as a guess I would say 30 or 40 to 1 at idle and maybe 16 to 1 at full throttle.

The air filter will have the most effect at full throttle (high fuel flow) conditions. Since at idle the diesel is running so extremely lean, air flow through even a moderately restricted air cleaner isn't going to be the problem


This is what the ECU manufacturer wrote back today:

We use gas analysers to calibrate diesel engines, measuring CO, HC, NOx and O2 to set the fuelling parameters.

It is not running rich, as to inject that amount of fuel would produce a lot more torque, thatís how diesels work. If you have a smoke issue when cold then itís either glow plugs not working or injection timing that needs to be optimised.

Regards


Last edited by mreuter on Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:12 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
What software are you using to tune the ECU? I would expect the software has a place to set warm up enrichment. You should be able to adjust that table to lessen the warm up enrichment . Or, you need to somehow tweak the input circuit from the coolant and ambient temp sensor to trick the ECU into thinking it is warmer than it is.


The ECU (Typhoon) software is free from SC in the UK and runs on window without ECU:

http://twinkam.co.uk/epages/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b02...e_Software
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
mreuter wrote:
my engine is running rich when cold.


Black smoke?

Or gray smoke?



At idle you're somewhere around 100:1 A/F ratio, at "WOT" you'll be around 24:1...


Greyish smoke (light greyish) and very "smelly" like it seems to attach to my close... As soon the engine is warmed up it goes away.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xoo00oox wrote:
How do you like this engine other than this issue?


I am "in love" with this engine. No vibration and my 5000 pound Westy handles like a regular car. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
mreuter wrote:
I am new to diesel "fine" tuning and I use to do fuel mapping on my engines by using a wideband sensor (AEM) to get the correct air/fuel ratio for a given RPM.
I am now using an aftermarket ECU for my diesel engine and was going to apply the same method because my engine is running rich when cold.


I assume from your post that the engine is smoking excessively when cold. This is not due to the A/F ratio being too high. It is not 'running rich' (too much fuel for the amount of air), rather, the fuel is not burning completely. At any partial-pedal or no-pedal situations where the engine is not yet developing boost there is many times the amount of air needed to completely burn the diesel that is being injected. As mentioned, in those situations, reducing fuel will just reduce the engine speed/output. If it is smoking excessively when cold and everything else is correct aside from the engine management tuning (e.g. no air infiltration into the fuel, correct glow plug cycling, etc...) then you would need to adjust the timing, not the amount of fuel injected (until the timing is correct and the excessive smoke is eliminated). Typical cold running requires more advanced timing of the injection event in order to avoid smoke as the diesel fuel requires more time to burn completely.


So we have it down now to ignition timing or glow plugs ... correct? Idea
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would be great to know someone or a local bay area company who has experience with this ECU (typhoon) software:

http://twinkam.co.uk/epages/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b02...e_Software
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Diesel ECU fine tuning question. Reply with quote

mreuter wrote:
Andrew A. Libby wrote:
If it is smoking excessively when cold and everything else is correct aside from the engine management tuning (e.g. no air infiltration into the fuel, correct glow plug cycling, etc...) then you would need to adjust the timing, not the amount of fuel injected (until the timing is correct and the excessive smoke is eliminated). Typical cold running requires more advanced timing of the injection event in order to avoid smoke as the diesel fuel requires more time to burn completely.


So we have it down now to ignition timing or glow plugs ... correct? Idea


I was amused at how closely the ECU manufacturer's comments mirrored mine. There are a few other items other than glow plugs and timing that can cause excessive cold running smoke but the two big ones would be glow plugs and injection timing. I'm am not specifically familiar with the Subaru diesel but have a fair amount of experience with VW and Mercedes and so am basing my comments on that experience. The other items that I can think of that would cause cold running smoke would be fuel quality (including air infiltration) and an internal engine issue such as poor compression. Do you have any clear fuel lines running to supply the engine and return? How are the glow plugs managed? The VW TDI engines keep the glow plugs on for a fair amount of time after the engine is running and without them the engine smokes a whole lot more. How is the injection timing adjusted on the Subaru?
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